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The Neutral Zone.
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Announcer:
Now here's your host, two-time Paralympian Brock Richardson.

Brock Richardson:
What's going on? It's time for another edition of The Neutral Zone. I am indeed your host Brock Richardson. And I got to say one of the beautiful things about doing a video podcast, which you can get on YouTube, on AMI-audio, on pretty much any podcast platform you can think about. But the most beautiful thing around this time of year is that every live show on AMI is on hiatus because they're moving studios around for Kelly and Ramya, which premieres January the 9th and also now with Dave Brown, they're moving him into a different studio, which also premieres on January the 9th, 2023. But alas, The Neutral Zone and all of the other podcasts will still commence for this episode and one more. And then we shall take a two-week hiatus for the Christmas break. Someone who's not taking a hiatus on wardrobe attire is one Cam Jenkins. Now he's come back from the Dominican looking like a million bucks. Cameron Jenkins, how are you?

Cam Jenkins:
I'm doing fantastic. It's a lovely vacation down in the Dominican. If anyone ever wants to go to Dominican, I highly suggest you go there. I went to the Gran Ventana. Great staff, great food, and every day they had a drink special, so I had to have at least one drink special. I'm not going to say whether it was alcoholic or non-alcoholic, but there was a beverage special every day. It was just great to get away.
The best part about it was my buddy Josh Nactel came with me and showed it to Josh because he just turned 50, I guess it was last Monday. And so I went to the entertainment staff and said, "Hey, can you sing him a Happy Birthday or put it on the loudspeakers or something along those lines?" He's like, "I remember you, you're a repeater. This is home. I got you." I'm like, "Right on." So not only did they put over their loudspeaker, Happy Birthday and said happy birthday to Josh specifically, but the entertainment staff person also said, "Anyone that says 'happy birthday' to my friend Josh needs to say 'Happy birthday, your Highness'.".The rest of the day, people were going up to Josh and saying, "Happy birthday, your Highness". It was awesome. He didn't like it too much, but I thought it was great.
It was a great vacation. Looking forward to go back there again. As they say, they call it our home. I'm looking forward to going back to it.

Brock Richardson:
Love it. And I think you're dressed up in nice attire because you were afraid that I was going to rip on your lack of suntan. I was saying last week or the week before, "You better come back with a suntan." I see you have a little bit, but...

Cam Jenkins:
I can show you. But I thought too, if you really wanted to see it, I can certainly show it to you. That's not a problem. I was in my hoodie just before the show and then I'm like, "Well, I know Claire. She's always dressed gorgeously and her hair's just perfect. And I know you, Brock, with your blue shirt or you got some Hawaiian thing going on. I thought, "There's no way these two coworkers of mine are going to outdo me today." I got a bit of sun.

Brock Richardson:
We don't need to see the suntan on the podcast. We'll save that for an after-hours episode of The Neutral Zone. I've taken way too long to introduce our next co-host and that is Claire Buchanan. Claire, how are you? Hello.

Claire Buchanan:
I'm doing fantastic. I usually don't show up underdressed anywhere. I like dressing up and looking good. But Cam definitely is outshining all of us today, truly showing us what self-care and a vacation does to you. It's looking good over there.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, this is good time. Next week I am going to be wearing a Christmas attire, and so ain't nobody out doing my Christmas attire next week.

Claire Buchanan:
We'll see. We'll see.

Brock Richardson:
Look forward to that.

Cam Jenkins:
Well that sounds like [crosstalk 00:04:55]

Brock Richardson:
Look forward to that. We'll have everybody join us at one point in the show, probably off the top. I'll have all of us be around because we have a busy show next week with two guests, Sam Cosentino and somebody from Great Britain Para Ice Hockey joining us next week. So busy show ahead, but I will make an appearance. Whoever doesn't join us as a regular co-host will make an appearance because I want everyone to wish everyone a good holiday. But before we get there, we have this week's show to attend to. Let's get to the headlines

Announcer:
Neutral Zone headlines.

Claire Buchanan:
The GOAT Team Canada captain Marie-Philip Poulin has won the 2023 Northern Star Award making her the first female hockey player to claim the honour given annually to Canada's Athlete of the Year. The young 31-year-old from Quebec led Canada's women's hockey team to both a world title and an Olympic gold both scoring in both games in a 3-2 win over the US in the championship game in Beijing. She finished second in scoring at the Beijing games with 17 points, one behind teammate Sarah Nurse.

Brock Richardson:
The winter meetings have taken place in Major League Baseball, which pretty well signifies the off-season has begun. Some of the most notable signings thus far is Aaron Judge, who is staying on New York Yankee, and signs a nine-year deal worth, wait for it, $360 million. I feel like he is starving for money, not. Cody Bellinger, who was reportedly tied to the Toronto Blue Jays, has signed a one-year deal worth $17.5 million with the Chicago Cubs. I wrote here, this is a cautionary tale because sometimes when you look at the media and winter meetings, everyone likes to move the needle on this and be the first to report on something. It was widely rumoured that Cody Bellinger would be a Toronto Blue Jay. However, he is not. Instead, they got Kevin Kiermaier on a deal. I'm not sure that that's going to move the needle for the Toronto Blue Jays, but time will tell.

Cam Jenkins:
Like you said, Brock, I think that's just one move in one of many that's going to happen with the Blue Jays between now and the start of the season. Buffalo Bills star linebacker Von Miller will miss the remainder of the season with a torn ACL reported earlier this week by Bills head coach Sean McDermott. That is going to be a huge problem, I think, for the Bills. But saying that, they did have a big defensive contest this past weekend on Sunday, and they were able to win that game. So I think with all of the players that Buffalo has that are so good, I think they're going to be able to overcome it.

Claire Buchanan:
With the World Junior Hockey Championship just a few weeks away, for the first time ever, any staff member and player is being asked to fill out documents regarding whether they have any criminal history or if they have ever been threatened with disciplinary action by the organization. Members also must consent to a search of their social media. I have very strong thoughts on this and we're going to touch on it later in the episode.

Brock Richardson:
Congratulations goes out to five-time Para Ice Hockey player and Paralympian medalist Billy Bridges, who's been named the accessibility coordinator of the Toronto Six Hockey Club. This is something that is a long time coming with organizations. I think there need to be accessibility coordinators in all organizations. And, I've seen on social media, it's because his wife is the owner of this team. No, I don't agree. I think it might have something to do with it, but I also think the need in 2022 is greater than the fact that it's his wife in the position she is in.
Those are your headlines for this week. Let's check on our Twitter poll questions. Was Canada's time a success at the World Cup of Soccer? 60% of you said "yes". Sorry, let me do that again. 60% of you said "no" and 20% of you said "yes".
This week's question is a simple one. Are you surprised that Aaron Judge remains a New York Yankee? Yes or no? You can cast your votes at our Twitter handles coming at you right now.

Speaker 6:
And welcome back to the Neutral Zone AMI broadcast Booth.

Speaker 7:
Play ball.

Speaker 6:
And we are set to get this ballgame underway. The first pitch brought to you by Brock Richardson's Twitter account @neutralzonebr. First pitch, strike. And hey, gang, why not strike up a Twitter chat with Claire Buchanan for The Neutral Zone? Find her at @NeutralZoneCB. And there's a swing and a chopper out to second base right at Claire. She picks up the ball, throws it over to first base...

Speaker 7:
Out.

Speaker 6:
...for a routine out. And fans, there is nothing routine about connecting with Cam and Josh from The Neutral Zone: @NeutralZoneCamJ and @JWatson200. Now that's a winning combination. And this organ interlude is brought to you by AMI-audio on Twitter. Get in touch with The Neutral Zone. Type in @AMIaudio.

Brock Richardson:
Cameron, I forgot to do something in segment one. So we're going to do this very quickly before we bring on our guests, but favourite drink of the day in Dominican was what? And the worst drink of the day was what?

Cam Jenkins:
Oh gosh. The best drink when I was in the Dominican last week was called Dominican Love. It was just full of colourful goodness and sugar and who knows how many ounces of alcohol. And the worst one was probably, oh gosh, I don't even remember the name of it, it was horrible, but it had some dark rum in there and I think some tequila and some other stuff, and it was just horrible. So if I can let you know, I'll put it out on social media, so if you ever go down to the Dominican not get that drink, but definitely get Dominican Love.

Brock Richardson:
There you go. And we're going to have a great conversation as we often do at this point in the show. Danielle Ellis is one of Canada's sitting volleyball athletes who competed at the World Championships where the team brought home a silver medal. Danielle is here from White Rock, British Columbia to chat all about the event. Danielle, thank you so much for doing this and welcome to the program.

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Cam Jenkins:
So Danielle, let's start by can you tell us how you became interested in the sport of sitting volleyball?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, so I played indoor volleyball all through elementary school and high school. When I was 16, I was approached and told about sitting volleyball, so I said, why not give it a try? Really any kind of volleyball is a good kind of volleyball. So I tried it here at home at GF Strong. They had a couple of clinics go on. And then I tried out for the national team in the spring of 2008, and the rest is kind of history. Volleyball is volleyball, and so I'm pretty excited about it. I never knew really much about PariSport at all going into playing sitting volleyball. So now I've had the experience of so many whether sports and other athletes with different disabilities like myself. So it's pretty cool.

Claire Buchanan:
Your team recently competed at the World Championships in Bosnia. Before we talk about the event specifically, can you touch on the environment that you're in and what it was like to be in that part of the world?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, it was really cool. Sarajevo, not necessarily made my bucket list in life, but it was pretty cool. All the people there were really great. The hotel was really nice. We were in some massive thermal spa retreat, so it was pretty cool. And then on top of that, one of my old teammates that actually played for the national team, she was actually born in Sarajevo. Her name's Tanya, so she actually flew out from here in Vancouver and came out for the whole competition. So that just made it really real for me, I guess too, just having somebody that was from the area be able to come in and enjoy and somebody who's from the program, it was pretty cool, but it was a neat hotel, and yeah, really great atmosphere.

Cam Jenkins:
So can you tell us about your team in the Round Robin play during the event?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, Round Robin started off with Slovenia when we first got there. Bit of a rough game for us. We really had to grind it out and figure out our footing. First game at World Championships, nerves kind of kick in and you just got to find out how you're going to play and where you're going to get to. So we were able to do that by the end of it, so it felt kind of good. It was obviously nice to play Slovenia early, and then we played them again in the semi-finals, so we kind of had a bit better footing when we played them the second time. But then we went on to play the USA and Iran in one day, so that's a lot. I mean, if you have or haven't watched it in volleyball, the games can range from two to three hours, so twice in a day is kind of intense, especially at a world championship. So really put us to the test.
They weren't short games either. We took the USA to five in the morning, so that was kind of rough to come back from too. They're always an amazing team to play. They're exciting, they're fast, they've got good speed. We play them quite a lot, and they are still the number-one-ranked team in the world. So we knew that was going to be a fight going in. Then we had to play the scrappy Iranians in the afternoon, so we haven't played them since 2016 so we really didn't know a lot going in. Just tried to play our game, do what we could do and what we practiced and we came out and were victorious in the third match, so it was a good Round Robin.

Claire Buchanan:
You then went out to the knockout stage and ultimately played Brazil in the gold medal final, which resulted in a 3/2 tie-breaking victory for Brazil. Can you chat a little bit about the final and what that experience was for you and your team?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, I mean, being in a final is always the goal. Our goal was definitely coming home with a medal. We came seventh at World Championships in 2018, so we knew that we could do a lot better after fourth in the Paralympics, so being in a final was amazing. It was such a good feeling. It just really gave us that feeling of accomplishment on all of our hard work and dedication that we put in.
A lot of us spent a lot more time in Edmonton at training than we had at home for the last six months or so. So it was just really rewarding to show that we could be in that final and that we could be one of the top competing teams in the world. Playing in the match had its ups and downs for sure. I still don't know exactly what it was. It wasn't our best game, and that's really unfortunate when you go and play a gold medal game, that's the game that you want to show up to, that's the game that you want to compete at, and unfortunately, we didn't play at our high level. We weren't able to get the ball to where it needed to go. So unfortunately five long sets later, Brazil took it and they came out really strong in that fourth and fifth set, and so that's what we need to learn to be able to do and do next time.

Brock Richardson:
We're joined by Danielle Ellis, who is a sitting volleyball athlete for the women's team, and she's here joining us from White Rock, British Columbia, talking all about the world championships. I am joined by Cam Jenkins and Claire Buchanan, and of course, I'm your host Brock Richardson.

Cam Jenkins:
Danielle, the Canadian women's team, they went on to make history at this event because they did get a silver medal, and that's the first time the Canadian Women's Program has done that at the World Championship. What does that mean to you and your team, the organization and just the sport as a whole?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's so huge. Like I said, we had seventh at World Championships in 2018, and that was our best place, and then fourth at the Paralympic Games. But to come into a world championship and compete and get silver is pretty massive. I mean, obviously to come home with a medal at all is so huge, but to be in that final, just to show everyone in Canada and then across the world too that Canada is a competitor in volleyball in general, whether it be sitting indoor or beach, we're fierce and we're growing and we're getting bigger and better. So I mean, for us, it means so much. It means that we need to come away with a medal every time we go. It means we need to keep fighting, keep working hard, and hopefully just can keep increasing the funding so that we can get more athletes out. We can train harder, train stronger, train longer, and just keep working towards that big goal. Hopefully, also, it'll just show other women and other kids that no matter the disability, you can still get a Silver Medal World Championship. So it's pretty cool.

Claire Buchanan:
I love that. And the cool thing about this is that the history doesn't end there. Canada also made the Paralympics for the first time in 2016. What do you attribute to the success, and now that Canada is now one of the teams to essentially beat when you go to world championships and Paralympic Games?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, honestly, I think it's just the dedication and the hard work and the effort that's put in by not only the 14 athletes that are at the games, but our immense coaching staff, all of our supporters and fans, family, friends. It's not easy being an athlete. Nobody ever said it was going to be. And that's the truth. You come out, and like I said I was honestly probably in Edmonton more than I was home this year, and that's great, but it really requires additional funding and it requires your people at home to take care of your dog when you're not there.
I think that on top of that, just our coaching staff really have worked really hard to get us here. Anyone from our head coach, Nicole Ban, who's honestly, I think she's the best sitting level coach there is in the world. She's worked so hard to further the program and the sport itself in the world. We're running things that nobody's ever run before. So it really takes a village. We've got amazing physios, a new video guy, and just everybody that's in the background. It's not one person or one thing that really brings a team to a silver medal. It's a group of like-minded individuals that are working towards the same goal, and that's what we've got.

Cam Jenkins:
Well, I'm going to talk for the other two as well. If you ever need somebody to take care of your dog and you're in the Ontario area, bring your dog out here and we're more than happy to take care of it, even if it's like one day with me, one day with Claire, one day with Brock. We'll definitely do that.

Danielle Ellis:
Thank you.

Claire Buchanan:
[inaudible 00:09:45].

Cam Jenkins:
So what's next for Danielle moving forward?

Danielle Ellis:
For me, I mean, we have an event in May in Edmonton, so that's just what I'm training for. That's our next qualifier. Unfortunately, a silver medal at World Championships does not qualify you for the Paralympics anymore, so we've just got to qualify. And now that we've got a silver at World Championships, it's a medal at Paris. So first we've got to get there. So our first next qualifier is going to be Edmonton from May 9th to 15th, and then after that we can qualify at the World Cup in November in Egypt. And then if we need one more chance, maybe in the spring next year. But one thing at a time, one step at a time, but my next big goal is definitely a medal at the Paralympics.

Claire Buchanan:
Well, I know sitting volleyball is a team sport, but both at the Tokyo Paralympic Games and this past World Championships you earned most outstanding player. What's contributing to you personally having so much success?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, I think it's just the hard work. I got best receiver here at the World Championships, and I think it's just hard work and I think it's just, I don't know, dedication. I mean, I'm sure some of it's got to do with the fact that I'm the team captain. I don't know. I hope it's the hard work and dedication that I put out there. I honestly work hard to be the best person, the best athlete in the world. It's also been a goal of mine for forever, is to just be known as one of the top competitors in the world for this sport. All of my coaches and teammates are aware of that, and I work hard every day to just get out there and for people to be a little bit intimidated or a lot intimidated.

Claire Buchanan:
That's the goal. Absolutely. One athlete to another, that is absolutely the goal.

Brock Richardson:
I've been an athlete for a long time and I've been there when you say you got two games in the same day. Can you sort of discuss the preparation that has to go in to make sure that you're in tip-top shape to compete in a two-game day in a short span of time?

Danielle Ellis:
Yeah, for sure. I think it's a lot of things, and I think it's some things that we're going back and looking at to see how we can still do better. As much as we did play well against Iran, I would say in the second game of that day, I think it wasn't necessarily our best performance either at the same time. And just going in, you've really got to put in the effort and the time. You've got to have double day practices where you're practicing two, three-hour practices a day. You've got to play a couple of matches a day. We were lucky, we were in Italy for the week before World Championships, and so we played scrimmages against the Italian team for a couple of days, and then we played matches against them. I believe it was two on Saturday and one on Sunday, but I could be wrong on the days of the week.
So just getting in that practice as well, honestly, to just not only compete and play and do the sport things that you want to do, but just compete and work hard at how you're going to do it and what you're going to be working towards. Just that physical and mental stamina because it's not just a physical game too, it's a lot of mental, the ball's coming at you pretty quickly and you really just have to know what to do at the same time. So a lot of practice. Practice makes that perfect, right?

Brock Richardson:
Is there anything other than the cliche of leading by example, is there anything that you do as captain with your team to not motivate them, because let's be fair, if you need to be motivated at a world championships, you probably shouldn't be at said world championships, but is there anything that you do as captain between the games like, "Okay guys, here we go. We got another game to go"?

Danielle Ellis:
I don't know. Maybe. Nothing that I guess I would just put my finger on, but I really just try to be, I don't know, a strong, stable piece of the team. So whether that's somebody that you need to talk to after practice or somebody that you can look to and say, "I know if I'm going to get her the ball that she's going to do something with it," just to be a strong support system. Definitely a tougher person on the court too. I am not going to sugarcoat things, and I think people are pretty aware of it. So I think that kind of helps too, though, at the same time, is just knowing that there's this strong, stable piece of equipment and that's me part of the team, I hope so anyways.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, that's definitely what makes a good captain, is a strong, stable piece of equipment. I love that phrase, to be perfectly honest. Danielle, thank you so much for doing this and best of luck in May in the road to continue to qualify, and we will most certainly have you back on down the line because we had a wonderful time chatting with you today.

Danielle Ellis:
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

Brock Richardson:
Always. That was Danielle Ellis, who is the captain of the women's sitting volleyball team, and she joins us from White Rock, British Columbia. If you have any feedback for this interview or anything else we do on the program, here's how you can get ahold of us.

Announcer:
Hey, if you want to leave a message for The Neutral Zone, call now 1-866-509-4545. And don't forget to give us permission to use your message on the air. Let's get ready to leave a voice-

Brock Richardson:
As we continue on here, on this edition of the Neutral Zone: Listen, Danielle has uttered something in the last portion of our show that I am going to use in different places. And it spawns the question, before we get going, who is the strong piece of equipment that is on this panel? And let, let's include one Josh Watson, even though he's not here today. Because for me the only piece of equipment that I would be is a blubbering piece of equipment. So, there's no strong piece of equipment for me. Anyone want to throw their hat in the ring on strong piece of equipment? Either of you, come on.

Claire Buchanan:
Oh, I think we were having this conversation before we recorded, is Marc Aflalo has all the power, it seems. We can't get into the chat without his-

Cam Jenkins:
Good point.

Claire Buchanan:
... consent, and just, he does all the editing, and all that. So, yeah, I think he's one of those strong pillars. But, I mean-

Cam Jenkins:
Well, he makes us all look good. That's got to take most of the time right there, to make us all look good. So, yeah.

Claire Buchanan:
My balance isn't that great, so don't trust me to hold anyone up.

Cam Jenkins:
That's awesome. Yeah, I have to agree, I think it's Marc and [inaudible 00:01:19], and because he's the one that holds the show together. He's the one that brings it all together. So yeah, should I do Marc Aflalo? I think he's the man.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. Marc, are you okay with being our strong piece of equipment?

Marc Aflalo:
I will take it. I will take it. Thank you. Thank you.

Brock Richardson:
He will take it. That's...

Claire Buchanan:
Take the compliments wherever you can get them, man.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, no, for sure. I echo those sentiments. Marc is... The first time that I've worked with Marc is for a long period of time, and he has definitely made our show into what it is now. And we can't forget about Matt Agnew, who brought this show to where it is. But I agree Marc Aflalo is our strong piece of equipment, and we appreciate him-

Cam Jenkins:
Sounds so wrong.

Brock Richardson:
... week in and week out. But yeah, let's move into another conversation. Well, a couple of conversations here. But let's start with the one that we mentioned in our headlines. And Claire, very eloquently, was going to say a lot, but then she remembered that we're going to talk about this. So, just as a reminder, the World Junior Hockey Championships begin on the 26th, which is Boxing Day, which is when they always do, unless it's in some weird time like the summer, as it was last year. But they... Because of all, what has gone on with the sexual assaults within Hockey Canada, they have now asked and allocated and mandated that every member of the staff must fill out forms that ask them whether they've had a criminal history; or whether they have been threatened by the organization with disciplinary action. Members must also provide consent for their social media search. Claire, it was your headline, so I'm going to ask you the first question. One, do you think these guidelines are necessary and/or fair?

Claire Buchanan:
Absolutely necessary. I think we can all agree that this has gone way too far. And just like in the past, we need to be held accountable for our actions. And I think this sends a message of, "We are trying to turn this around and go in a better direction, and here are the things that we need to do to get there." And this kind of request, and kind of mandatory request, doesn't have to be kind of permanent. It could be temporary where, "Okay, for now, you have to consent to these rules, and we have full access to your social media, and prove to us that you are wanting to put the faith back into the Hockey Canada logo, and the Hockey Canada jersey that you want to wear for as long as your a hockey career goes."
So, if these athletes, and players, and coaching staff, and anyone else involved, want to turn this around, and be more well-respected in the hockey community again, I think this is a good step. And like I said, it could be a temporary one. But it really puts a lot more accountability on athletes that should be taking these things a lot more seriously. Especially social media.
You touched on that it was sexual assault cases, but it's also bullying in hockey. And if we can catch it before it gets worse, and if that means going into people's social media and possibly catching bullying before it gets to a place where it has in the NHL, then I'm absolutely on board for this.

Cam Jenkins:
Yeah, I'm actually very much on board for this as well. It's great that there... Because, I remember any club that I belong to, we've had a code of conduct as well. And every organization should have that. So, with Hockey Canada, I believe all of the coaches and managers and everybody's going to have to sign this and abide to it. It's going to be interesting to see how they are able to put this in place, or how they're going to be able to stop it from happening before it happens, in a world of social media, as well. There's so many ways people can get caught from doing bullying, or sexual misconduct as well.
So, I'm glad that this is a first step, because it shows that they're on the way to being, how do I say, just take accountable and just doing what they should have done many years ago, at the end of the day. And it's nice to see that they have this first step, but I'm even more interested to see how they're going to be able to uphold this, or be able to put this into action. Because signing something doesn't necessarily mean that good things are going to happen, or that you're going to be able to take a look at it to be able to stop it. But I think, you know, have to start somewhere. And it's good first step, and I'm very looking forward to seeing what they're going to do to uphold this.

Brock Richardson:
Cameron, since you brought this up as being a first step, where do you see this going as a second step? I think, to your point, it's a hard thing to make sure that this doesn't happen. It's a hard thing to get ahead of before it actually takes place. Where do you see this going as a step beyond this?

Cam Jenkins:
Well I think it has to start from the top. And they are taking care of that as well, because there's going to be a new board with Hockey Canada., And that's going to be, I believe, five women and four men, are going to be on the board and it's for a one-year term. So I think, you know, you need new fresh faces in there. And I forgot the gentleman's name, but he's going to be the head of the board. And he was an Ontario court justice minister or something along those lines. So, it's really good to be able to have somebody that has a court or a judge background, to be able to paddle through these waters to be able to make it the best that they can.
And having the five women as well, I think that's going to be phenomenal to be able to have that perspective as well. To be able for them to say, "Okay, well this is how men treat us, or how men have treated women, so how can we stop this?" And to get their perspective. Because before, it was just the old boys' club. And if you don't have the people that have been affected, or at least women in the boardroom, to be able to show a different side of things, I think that's very important. So, I'm very happy that the board's basically almost split, and you're going to get different perspectives from a lot of different people.

Brock Richardson:
I think the thing that... Before I let Claire weigh in here, I think the thing that I need to see in this is, people of diverse background. I think we've seen a lot of Hockey Canada be prominently the white gentleman's background, and I think that this needs to change and be different. I agree with you, Cameron. I think it starts with the board change. I think that needed to take place. I think Scott Smith, the previous head of the board, needed to take that step, even though he could sit there and say, "I'm going to be the voice of change, I'm going to lead this." I don't think he could have, given the way that he left Hockey Canada, and the shape that he left Hockey Canada in, and also the years that he spent in the background of Hockey Canada. He still had a voice during those periods, and I don't think he used it enough, but onward and upward here. Claire, interested... Sorry, Cameron, go ahead, if you have more to add there.

Cam Jenkins:
Oh, well, I was just going to say, for the actual tournament, that's where these sexual abuse allegations have taken place during the tournament, if I am correct, in 2013 and 2018, I think it was. So, do you treat it as, you go to a hotel, and... Because I've been a sports team at a hotel, and I know how we can be out in the halls, and so on and so forth. Does Hockey Canada have to hire security for each floor and have, like, a "you must be in your room by this hour and nobody else", and having security to make sure it's only those people in the room? That's the only... At the actual tournament, that's the only other thing I can think of, is having security on the floors, and doing it that way. And if you're not in your room by a certain time, then you're suspended, you can't play the game.

Brock Richardson:
Here's the thing: I don't know... An athlete has to hold themselves accountable. And I understand...

Cam Jenkins:
But they didn't!

Brock Richardson:
I understand that. But I understand what you're saying, and I understand the premise to what you're going at. But, Claire, that idea, as much as I agree with the premise and the understanding, that idea really, really feels like, "We have to hold your hand and walk you into your hotel room at 11:00 PM," and I don't know if I like that. Thoughts?

Claire Buchanan:
I don't like it at all, either. As a mom of a boy, yeah, we just can't let this go as, "Oh, boys will be boys will be boys, and we got to literally hold their hand and put them to bed so they don't get into any mischief." These athletes are 16, 17, 18 years old. Let's be real here. You know what decisions you're making.
Right, and, I mean-

Cam Jenkins:
We were all 16, 17, 18, and we certainly didn't have the maturity of a lot of things, like even going to tournaments. I remember people acting up at that, and sneaking out, or doing this, or doing that. And until the Hockey Junior kids - and they are kids - can show that they can be responsible, I don't see another alternative to make sure that they don't embarrass themselves, and even more so, Hockey Canada. Because Hockey Canada has so much to lose when it comes to this. And at the end of the day, would you rather pay millions of money out of a slush fund that they set aside for this type of thing - so they knew it was darn well going to happen - or do you pay money for security for a couple of nights, or a week, which is going to cost a lot less than the millions of dollars you have in a slush fund to be able to get yourself out of these-

Claire Buchanan:
No, no, no, I'm sorry...

Cam Jenkins:
... sexual abuse allegations in the first place?

Claire Buchanan:
At any age as a boy, if you can't hear someone saying "No", and you're taking that with no disregard, there's a way bigger problem. And maybe these kids need their parents there. They're under 18 years old.

Cam Jenkins:
Well, what's the difference-

Claire Buchanan:
Bring their mom.

Cam Jenkins:
... what's the difference between security and parents?

Claire Buchanan:
Oh, it's much different. The conversations are different. And that's what needs to happen. And with this fresh-

Cam Jenkins:
But you're still having somebody to hold your hand and babysit you, at the end of the day.

Claire Buchanan:
Well, then these kids don't deserve-

Cam Jenkins:
And a lot of the parents are there.

Claire Buchanan:
... to be at this tournament, if they're going to be disrespectful like that.

Cam Jenkins:
I agree.

Claire Buchanan:
Absolutely not.

Cam Jenkins:
But you're not going to know it's them until they end up acting up, so-

Claire Buchanan:
If this continues-

Cam Jenkins:
And a lot of the parents are there anyway.

Claire Buchanan:
Absolutely. If this continues, and these kids don't want to put the effort into changing the narrative... Because let's be real, this is a new generation of hockey players that has the chance to say, "Not everyone is like this. We're going to prove ourselves to be respectful hockey players. And we're going to put our heads down and be hockey players." And outside of that, it's nice to see that the head office is looking a lot more diverse. That was one thing that we needed to have happen. So, we can check that off. And with that diverse group of people is going to... Those conversations that and teachings that need to happen are going to one, come naturally, because these are people that have lived experience through this, as women and people of colour. They've probably experienced this during their hockey career-

Cam Jenkins:
But the men haven't. The men haven't, though.

Claire Buchanan:
And then, with these new faces-

Cam Jenkins:
The men haven't. So, it's good to have somebody on the board, and I agree with you, to have women on the board, to be able to teach, to able to talk through their experiences, or women's experiences overall. But-

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah. Well, I'm talking about bullying as well. These men on the board could have experienced that as well. We don't know their stories. And that's what's going to benefit these hockey players, is hearing these stories. And also, I really hope that part of the plan to turn this around actually includes courses; and actual put-in-place time, where you're hearing these stories, and you're learning how to move through situations, if you're faced with a possibility of being in a situation that you could get into some trouble; and how to get out of that, and really, how to manage through that without putting anyone else's safety or autonomy at risk.

Cam Jenkins:
Well, with the toxicity that is in hockey, I just, myself, I just don't believe that... I think we can cure maybe some of it. But I think that it's never going to be cured, and you're always going to have that toxicity within hockey, and that's going to happen. And, like I said, for myself, I think that at the end of the day-

Claire Buchanan:
I agree with you.

Cam Jenkins:
... whether or not you're... So many of the World Junior players, their parents are already there and this is still happening. Over those couple of years, 2013 and 2018. So, that's why I think having security on a floor-

Claire Buchanan:
I agree with you, I mean...

Cam Jenkins:
... to check in, or to do something like that, that will also, at least at the tournament, be able to stop that kind of behaviour. Because they know it's wrong, but they were still doing it. And those are the only two cases that we know about. I think we need to open our eyes to realize this probably happened a lot more at tournaments, as well. These are the only two cases that have come to light, though.

Brock Richardson:
Oh, let's be very clear about something. We know that there are more than these two situations that have taken place at Hockey Canada. I think when they were doing the hearings, it was up to some disgusting number of bullying and all different kinds of harassment. It was like up to 12 cases of this. The problem, Cameron, here, with your suggestion - and I want to be very clear that I understand the premise and the reason you're suggesting it. The problem is, do you know how much money that would cost Hockey Canada to pay for-

Cam Jenkins:
Not as much money as they're spending for all of the lawsuits.

Brock Richardson:
I get that. However, we need to put that into resources that are going to hit this on its head. We need to put that into modules, we need to put that into courses, we need to put that into things that is actual concretively going to make the change, versus-

Cam Jenkins:
Yep, I agree with that

Brock Richardson:
... versus just saying, "Here are, say, four security guards that are going to cost in the thousands of dollars to put them here." The problem with these modules, and I'm sure they're out there-

Cam Jenkins:
Brock, like I said, it's not just, the only thing is just to hire security guards and that's it. No, they should have definitely everything else that they're talking about, in courses, and so on and so forth. But until they let us know, or let Hockey Canada know that they can be responsible, it's like a kid. You take some privileges away, or you ground them, or you do whatever it is. If they want to act like kids, then you're going to treat them like kids.

Brock Richardson:
You know how...

Claire Buchanan:
I absolutely agree. And you know what, at the end of the day, if this continues, you don't get to be a part of the World Junior Tournament.

Cam Jenkins:
But I want to stop it before it happens, as well.

Claire Buchanan:
You can't act respectfully?

Cam Jenkins:
Hence my suggestion of securities.

Claire Buchanan:
Yes, and that's what these modules and training should do.

Cam Jenkins:
Yeah, that will help as well, for sure.

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah. And at some point-

Cam Jenkins:
And I totally want that to happen, I want everything else to happen. I want them to be in groups, I want them to be taking courses, to have a check, whether it's a police check or something along those lines, too, to vet them, at the end of the day. All of those things also need to happen. But until they can stop acting like children, and stop harassing other players, and/or sexually assaulting women, put security guards there, at least for this tournament. And this is only this tournament that I'm talking about.

Claire Buchanan:
Oh, yeah.

Cam Jenkins:
Because there's such a bigger, much bigger problem. That's just something you can do at this specific tournament to help out.

Claire Buchanan:
I mean, at what point are these players going to check themselves and say, "Do I want to be this type of human being?" Like... That's-

Cam Jenkins:
Yeah, I certainly would hope that they would.

Claire Buchanan:
... these hockey players need to realize the jersey that they have on, and the respect that they're demanding, really, as hockey players. They're clearly showing a level of privilege that is way out of their league.

Cam Jenkins:
Absolutely.

Claire Buchanan:
And at some point, they got to be a little more humble, and a little more respectful, and truly represent what wearing the maple leaf is.

Cam Jenkins:
Means. Yeah, absolutely.

Brock Richardson:
And this is turning into a longer, but great, conversation, than initially intended, as it always does on the program here. But here's the thing that I will say: If wearing your Canadian colours is not enough pride for you to stop doing this kind of thing, then I don't know what would be. And I don't think a security guard at the end of a hallway, at the end of a situation, is going to stop that. If somebody is going to do that, even though getting the privilege - and let me repeat that - even though getting the privilege of representing your country, if that's not going to stop you... Oh, I just get very concerned about what-

Cam Jenkins:
And it hasn't in the past, Brock.

Claire Buchanan:
And that's the point. It needs to change.

Brock Richardson:
And that's a-

Cam Jenkins:
No, absolutely. But it hasn't in the past. So, you're asking for ideas of how to stop it, and we were specifically talking about the World Junior hockey tournaments. And even... There was... I think you had the statistics on that, Brock, as far as how many-

Brock Richardson:
I think it was 12, was the final number.

Cam Jenkins:
... assaults, or... But how many complaints were there? Weren't those in the 900, I think?

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. It was-

Cam Jenkins:
So, that's a lot.

Brock Richardson:
It wasn't quite a thousand but it was-

Claire Buchanan:
It was pretty close. In pretty close. Yeah.

Brock Richardson:
... in the 900 range. And complaints, though, we have to also caution, and say that complaints, you have to sift through the weeds of those, too, because-

Cam Jenkins:
Fair enough.

Brock Richardson:
... my neighbour did a lot of complaining over things that aren't complaint-worthy. So, we do sort of have to look at that number, and understand as a collective that some of those complaints-

Cam Jenkins:
Okay, so-

Brock Richardson:
... could be a bit watered down. So, let's say-

Cam Jenkins:
So out of the 900, what do you think? 450? That's taking it down by 50%. 450 is too many as well.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, sure it is. Sure, it absolutely is. And it's a problem that needs to change. And the problem is that us as Canadians - and I'm going to throw my myself into this - us as Canadians because the World Juniors has been such a staple for my entire life - we as Canadians wrap ourselves in the Canadian flag, and turn away, and just sort of go, "That's happening over there," and it's something that we need to acknowledge and change. And I also want to say - and then I want to just move on quickly to the World Cup semifinals, which are going to be happening this week and I want to get some predictions - but I also want to say that, 2013 and 2018, yes those are two circumstances. But we also have to acknowledge that the 2022, 2023, may not be the same mentality, the same mindset. So, we can't all put them in the same box and say, "This is going to happen to you."
But what we can do, and what they are doing, is saying, "We're going to make sure, on paper, that this isn't going to happen again." And it'll be very interesting to see; because two, three years down the line from these events, people are still, going to be talking about, what did happen at the World Juniors or what didn't? And the fact is, is that you can't be held to say, "You can't have anybody in your room after 11:00 PM," because most people-

Cam Jenkins:
Why can't you?

Brock Richardson:
... or a good majority of people, might just have friends coming to their room. And that shouldn't be taken away from them, either. But it's-

Cam Jenkins:
I can guarantee you they have their curfew.

Claire Buchanan:
Well, I was going to say, yes, I was going to say that-

Cam Jenkins:
Guarantee you.

Claire Buchanan:
Easily there's a curfew, and-

Cam Jenkins:
Guarantee you!

Claire Buchanan:
... at a World Junior tournament, I don't see why any athletes should be awake after 11 o'clock anyway.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, because you need-

Cam Jenkins:
Exactly. They should be getting their sleep so they can beat the other country, at the end of the day. And if you want to have a communal area of people-

Claire Buchanan:
Yes, exactly.

Cam Jenkins:
... to visit, or whatever, then you book a boardroom, and you put tables down there, and you have a whole bunch of different people there, and do something like that, if you want to visit. And you can make it homey, and put Chesterfields or chairs in the boardroom, or whatever you want there, and then have other coaches, or whatever, there as well. And that's another way to stop it from happening, rather than somebody going up to one of the hotel rooms and closing their door. Because once you close that door, you don't know what's going on.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. Very quickly, we got about 90 seconds. We have the semifinals upon us, and I want some predictions. We've got Argentina versus Croatia in one semifinal, and France versus Morocco. What say both of you in this? Who do you got? Claire?

Claire Buchanan:
I am a big underdog fan. So, I'm rooting for Morocco against France. And yeah, I think Argentina's going to make it into the final, but how exciting would that be to have a Argentina-Morocco final?

Cam Jenkins:
I definitely want Morocco. My gut is telling me, or the reality part of my brain says France. But I want Morocco because like Claire, I love the underdog. And then I'm going to say, I think it was Croatia, Croatia is in one of the semifinals. So, because it starts with a sea - it's very scientific how I'm doing this - because it starts with a C and my name is Cameron, starts with a C, that's why I'm going for Croatia.

Brock Richardson:
Listen, this makes for the pool of Canada to be one of the toughest, when you have Croatia and Morocco both being representative. So to me this makes Canada's World Cup experience even better, to know that two of those nations are in the semifinals. That is the end of our show for this week. We thank you for joining us. I'd like to thank Cam Jenkins, Claire Buchanan. I would also like to thank our technical producer, Marc Aflalo. Our manager of AMI-audio is Andy Frank. Tune in next week, because we have a jam-packed show ahead of the holidays. We thank you for listening. Be safe. Be well.