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The Neutral Zone

Brock Richardson and his panel of sports experts engage in a lively roundtable discussion about Parasports and professional sports news and newsmakers.

The Neutral Zone

Brock Richardson and his panel of sports experts engage in a lively roundtable discussion about Parasports and professional sports news and newsmakers.

March 14, 2023

Announcer:
Are you ready? Let's go. From AMI Central. Now start playing in The Neutral Zone. Here's a pitch on the way, 36 yards for the win. This ... Here comes the big chance, the shot. Is this the dagger? The Neutral Zone. Home run. This is as good as it gets. Now here's your host, two-time Paralympian, Brock Richardson.

Brock Richardson:
Hey, what's going on? It's time for another edition of The Neutral Zone. I am indeed your host, Brock Richardson, and I'm alongside Josh Watson and Claire Buchanan. With that, let's jump right into our headlines.

Announcer:
Neutral Zone Headlines.

Claire Buchanan:
We start things off today in the world of wheelchair curling at the World Championships, and we'd like to congratulate Collinda Joseph and Dennis Thiessen on their bronze medal match win against China at the World Wheelchair Curling Championships this past week.

Brock Richardson:
Sticking in the curling world, team Canada defends their title as they and Brad Gushue went for their fifth briar in seven seasons, with a 7-5 victory over Matt Dunstone. Brad Gushue and his team will represent Canada at the World Championships coming up in a few weeks in Ottawa. Congratulations, Brad, and I know you will represent Canada very well, as you often have done.

Josh Watson:
Toronto Raptors player, Fred VanVleet was recently fined $30,000 after post-game comments made toward referee Ben Taylor. In those post-game comments, Fred mentioned that Ben Taylor has given him the most technical fouls in his career. We'll chat more about this later in the show, but I definitely have some thoughts about officials that decide to insert themselves into the last minutes of a game.

Brock Richardson:
Those are your headlines for this week and as I mentioned, we're going to stray away from the Twitter polls for a little while and have a little bit of a chit-and-chat at this point in the show. And today that conversation stems around para-sports. I was watching the World Championships for wheelchair curling and I got to say I have the utmost respect for a lot of para-sports, but I have more respect for wheelchair curling because if you watch conventional curling when there's sweepers, you think, "Oh, yeah, the two sweepers can sweep it to the T line and it's all good." In wheelchair curling, you don't have that as an option and so I'm curious from both of you, starting with Claire, is there a para-sport that you don't play or you do, that you have more respect for than others?

Claire Buchanan:
I mean, I would have to say wheelchair basketball and wheelchair rugby, specifically. Just finished watching the Women's World Cup in Paris for wheelchair rugby and I got to hand it to them, anyone in that sport, the level of physicality that it brings, for one, having a disability in a chair and then not having full function of all four of your limbs, it's incredible to see the accuracy of passing and angling and helping each other pick each other up off the floor. And yeah, just the dynamics of the sport is, I guess, I want to say admirable and it's a sport that I would like to get in a chair and try out, that's for sure.

Josh Watson:
For me, I'm not so sure if rugby is my sport. I've played it once or twice and there's just something about being crashed into headlong that just doesn't quite do it for me personally. For me, I guess it would be wheelchair basketball. I've messed around a little bit with a basketball, I've shot hoops in the driveway with siblings and friends and that sort of thing, and it's not easy to shoot from a seated position, it's really not. So anyone that has done that at any level, to me, has definitely earned my respect because it's very challenging for me, at least.

Brock Richardson:
I would also say not only are you in a seated position, but not very often are you stopped while making a shot. You are sometimes moving your hips or moving your wheels or something like that, you're on the move, even if it's ever so slightly, as you're shooting the ball. So to have that level of accuracy while all kinds of things are moving in different directions, that can be tough as well. I agree with both of your assessments. For me, the other one that I'm loving and thinking, "Well, if I could, I would try this," is sitting volleyball. And I don't know how well that would work for me from a guy who's got zero upper body strength in a wheelchair, but it just seems fun to be sliding around on the floor and going after a ball. I would just love that and I've seen it and I would love to play it, but I think with my minimal upper body ability, I think I'll probably just stick to radio broadcasting and be happy with my two Paralympics in bocce. Josh, could you see me doing sitting volleyball?

Josh Watson:
You know what, I would not put anything past you. I do think, based on your description of attempting sledge hockey, that maybe sitting volleyball would be a challenge, but yeah, I wouldn't put it past you to give it a shot, at least.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, I sat in a sledge when I was probably about eight to 10 years old and my respite worker, Kathy Ludwig, who we've had on the program a few times in different iterations, but she put me in a sled and I ended up, first I was on my back, she put me back up, and then I ended up on my right side, she put me back up, I ended up on my left, and then she put me back up and I said, "This is not the sport for me. Let's find something that I can do." It didn't last long, my try of para ice hockey, sledge hockey, whatever you want to call it, but it's fun to try different sports. With that, we're going to give you how to get a hold of us on Twitter. Here's how you can do it.

Announcer:
And welcome back to The Neutral Zone AMI broadcast booth. Play Ball. And we are set to get this ballgame underway. The first pitch brought to you by Brock Richardson's Twitter account @NeutralZoneBR. First pitch, strike, and hey, gang, why not strike up a Twitter chat with Claire Buchanan for The Neutral Zone? Find her @NeutralZoneCB. And there's a swing and a chopper out to second base right at Claire. She picks up the ball, throws it over to first base for a routine out. And fans, there is nothing routine about connecting with Cam and Josh from The Neutral Zone @NeutralZoneCamJ and @JWatson200. Now, that's a winning combination. And this organ interlude` is brought to you by AMI Audio on Twitter, get in touch with The Neutral Zone, type in @AMIAudio.

Brock Richardson:
Today we have a real privilege and honour to be joined by Paralympian Ness Murby and his wife, training partner and sport assistant Eva Fejes. Ness represented three countries in three para-sports, Australia, Japan, and Canada. The sports are goalball, para-athletics and powerlifting. Today they're joining us to be talking about Ness Murby's Transcending, which is available on AMI-tv. Guys, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Josh Watson:
Eva, if we can maybe start with you on this question? Can you talk to us a little bit about how you and Ness met?

Eva Fejes:
Ness and I, we met in Tokyo, in Japan. We'd both gone there to teach English and have some adventures separately. We happened to be working for the same company, and it had several locations for schools, and it took a while before our paths crossed, but the day they did, I had arrived at school, was late, as usual and not late, but I was going to be late if I didn't hurry. And they asked me to, could I help out one of my coworkers and let them know what their lessons were for the day? And I didn't ask why, I just grabbed this piece of paper, ran into Ness's room and slapped this piece of paper down on the table and said, "Here are your lessons for the day, see ya." And almost made it out the door before Ness stopped me politely and said, "Oh, I'm going to need you to read those to me, I'm blind."
And that's when I noticed the sunglasses, the guide dog under the desk. That was a moment for me, for sure, but the rest is history. We hit it off from the first and though it took a while before we went on our first date, while we had so many adventures together in Japan, and I guess the most life-changing one was a simple one, when Nest invited me to the gym and just said, "Do you want to go? Just come try it out once, you never have to go again." And I was hooked and I was reeled right in, and before I knew it, I was sports assistant and we were travelling to international competitions and I had not an ounce of sporting in my history, so this was straight in the deep end, but amazing.

Claire Buchanan:
Ness, can you take us on a journey of how the show came to fruition and how it's getting started?

Ness Murby:
Yeah, certainly. The show, I'm still getting used to the idea that my name is attached to something that shows up on the television TV Guide, like, whoa. Okay, so how did this start? We were approached. We were approached by an aid who had heard about my coming out and they really wanted to highlight the story and the journey that we were on. And they approached us in 2021, in the beginning of the year, and funnily enough, part of their pitch, they had to get what's called in the industry, a sizzler, I've heard. So they were doing some footage in 2021 at the beginning, and that was done on Eva's due date.
So really how did this begin? We were approached, we started filming on Eva's due date and then things went back to the network and we got busy being first-time parents and didn't give it another thought. And all of a sudden in 2022, an aid contacted us and said, "Hey, AMI is ready to go ahead with this show." And Eva and I kind of both looked at each other and went, "Well, there's a lot more to fill the space now that we've got a one-year-old." So yeah, things definitely took a different journey and I'm really grateful that we were approached because as an extroverted introvert, this has been a ride. This has seriously been one heck of a ride to be on, having a camera crew and everything. I don't know how all of you do this on a regular basis.

Josh Watson:
Ness, can we talk a little bit about your journey itself and when you identified that you wanted to begin your transition?

Ness Murby:
My journey, all right. So this is a beautiful starting point, I'm just going to take you back a little bit, which is like, hey, only a good three decades ago. I was six and my gran asked me, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And I just looked at gran and I said, "I want to be a husband and a father." And my gran, amazing human, just looked at me and said, "Yeah, you should have been born a boy." And from that moment I knew that there was this idea that it's possible, I could actually be a dad and a husband, and that was all I needed to know, that my dreams were possible. Now growing up and travelling through the world and becoming a Paralympian, the different messages I got were more complex. And one that I got, a message I was given that was really strong was, "Hey, if you want to be your authentic self, you need to leave sport because there is no place for you in sport as a trans, queer, blind individual."
And so I sat with that and coming out to my wife, even finding the language to come out to myself was a process in itself, because the world just wasn't telling me that I wasn't the only. And I think that that was something that was hard to reconcile. And so in sport, I was going to retire, I was going to leave sport ranked top six in the world and never say out loud who I was or why I was leaving. And when I started to hear the global voice getting louder for demanding justice, equity and inclusion, that's what told me that I wasn't alone. I still didn't see myself represented. And what I realized was that I could potentially do that for someone else. I could be that person that I didn't have to look to. And so that journey of coming out, the day when I realized that I couldn't do this anymore, was a point, a turning point in my life where I got to simultaneously not be coping and also recognize that I could potentially hold space for somebody else.
So I'm not sure if that answers your question entirely, but I think that that's sort of the key essence of my journey, that I've known who I am my entire life, being able to be myself is what has been the hardest journey.

Claire Buchanan:
It's really incredible, the power of representation, when it's there and people are able to access it. And it's definitely a hard journey when you haven't seen it in the past for yourself and stepping into that power of being that representation for say, the next generation. And Ness and Eva, you guys were together before you started your transition. And Eva, can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like for you and how that conversation went within your relationship?

Eva Fejes:
Yeah. That was a journey of a number of years and I will say that it was before I put a lot of my energy and focus on my mental health growth and stepping back from a lot of the prescribed ABCs that I had been raised with, even having been with Ness, which of course just being brought into the world of disability had changed so much and there's still always more that can be broken down and pulled out of us. So yeah, definitely when it first came up, neither Ness nor I had really been exposed to the idea, we didn't have the language. So it was really new, it was really new. And being human, I did a very typical thing and took it really personally and reacted with, how is this going to affect me? What does this mean to me? How does this change my identity?
Discovering my queerness was a huge thing for me, and suddenly it felt like somehow that was going to be taken away or it was really complicated and confusing at first. And we did a lot of work separately and together. And I will say that because it was a process and because of sport and because Ness is the type of guy who I think ... I mean, he speaks on this in the documentary, he's spoken on this a number of times, thinking that he was going to lose everything. So he was, I believe, constantly seeing what the minimum was that he could survive with, and that makes me really sad to think about now. But the time eventually came in 2020 when he turned to me and said, "This is too much. I can't survive like this anymore."
And I mean, it's always the right time, isn't it? We were at a point, we'd done all the growing that we needed to do. We had faced so many things together and separately and we were ready. He was ready, I was ready. And then in a lot of ways, neither of us were, and it was just hold hands and jump, like so many things we do together.

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah, I love that you say that. Like you said, it's always a right time, but at the same time, it's never the right time. I felt the same way coming out myself and also having a child, you never fully feel 100% prepared, but that's the journey of it. You spoke on a lot of challenges that you both faced, both in sport and growing your relationship. What would you put out there to people that are looking for the same representation, to give them a better sense of how to navigate those barriers that are just right now, yes, there's less and less than them coming down in sport and stuff for this community, but what kind of advice would you put towards people that are looking to you and seeing that it's possible to be your full authentic self and play sports at a high competitive level?

Eva Fejes:
Oh wow. I think it's really important to always come back to your knowing and your integrity and recognize that it's really important who you have around you, that you need people who authentically believe and support you and are working to rid themselves of all that stuff that's programmed in us for our whole lives and before, and that they actively, actively work to fight beside you. The people around us, that's been the most important thing for me, and it has required saying goodbye to a lot of people, but because of that, we're able to keep our family and our islands safe and to be able to show up. I think that's the thing. If I didn't have the right people around me, and there's few, but they're amazing, we're able to keep showing up. And I think that's what we all need to do, is to keep showing up for each other and that's what changes everything, that gives us the strength.

Josh Watson:
My next question is for both of you, I'm wondering what's been the most rewarding part about the documentary for you guys? And consequently on the flip side, what was most challenging? And maybe Ness, we can start with you on this one.

Ness Murby:
Yeah. Doing a documentary, what the audience gets to see is six episodes, approximately half an hour in length. And what went into that was 30, 10 hour days of filming, all this in between conversation, discussion, back and forth, a whole lot of weeks, hours, time of post-production, to come down to what you see here. And I think that that's something that I want to highlight as this has been a journey and I didn't know what to expect when I signed up. I've never done anything like this before. I was excited and as Eva says, hold hands, jump in, both feet.
And so I think part of the reward in doing this was some really serious growth. Now I'm ready to go do another documentary. Hey, I've learned so much. And I think that one of the beautiful things is it's such a reflection of life growing along the way. And 2022 was one of the hardest years of my life, for various reasons that are captured in the documentary and also some that aren't. And being able to bear witness to not just my journey, but other people's journeys along that year, having the opportunity to elevate the voices of other humans with intersecting marginalized identities, to chat and get to understand what other people's realities are. I mean, camera crews showing up at our place. You start off by, okay, I'm going to tidy and get all this stuff clean and ready before we have 10 people in our room who are strangers.
And I've got to keep up with those aspects of life because that's this pre-conditioned way that we approach social situations. And then realizing that we're all just human. And so it became more about the connections and hearing what people had done on the weekend or what they were facing or if they had kids and getting to know other humans and their stories. That was really rewarding, and that's the behind-the-scenes. And so there's this component that the audience doesn't even get to experience, that was a reward for me, that was behind the scenes, behind the lens. In front of the lens and what goes out to the world, it's rewarding to be a part of just showing up. And that holding space thing, I used to think that I was alone and that I'm fighting for space for myself and for potentially this society that may or may not exist, but I've got to create space.
And the rewarding part was making all these connections and learning just how interrelated we all are, how much connection there is, and that my holding space, it makes a difference. I think that was rewarding because I questioned myself so often, of is this making a difference? So I have so much gratitude for learning that along the way and learning about people. So the challenge, which is a lot shorter answer, is wow, vulnerability hangovers, that's a lot. That's one ongoing speed dial, definitely have to do some self-breathing and grounding work. Vulnerability hangovers, it's a lot showing up. But that's something that I'm so grateful to Eva for, is that when we said we do this, we did it with all of our hearts and showing up and being imperfect and open and vulnerable is what we did. And that was harder on some days than others because being ourselves in front of camera crew is one thing, and then when you realize it's about to go live on telly, it's another thing. So Eva and I held hands last Wednesday and said, "Wow, well, we're already in this. Let's watch it." Yeah.

Eva Fejes:
Oh, well of course a lot of what Ness says resonates. I can almost say that the most rewarding and the most challenging thing about doing this has been the same thing, which has been showing up. I don't like being seen, I never have. And being called to do this, having this opportunity, it was so obvious we had to do it and it was a nightmare for me, it's the nightmare, and I did it. And so definitely the hardest and definitely being on the other side of it, I can say that it's the most rewarding.

Claire Buchanan:
Ness, in one of the episodes you bring us into your daily life or weekly life, sorry, of using hormone injections for your transition. And can you tell us why it was important to share that part of your life and if there was any struggle of deciding whether to show that or not?

Ness Murby:
Yeah, and thank you for acknowledging that there might have been struggle. There was struggle in a lot of the pieces simply because it's showing all of myself and was really important, just as important as it was trying to elevate the voices of others. So each week I inject testosterone hormone replacement therapy, and it was really important to have that depicted because there are so many narratives and misconceptions and assumptions that are made around physically transitioning and medically transitioning and they're harmful. I've been asked an array of questions and what's evident to me is that the understanding of taking testosterone when it's linked with being an individual who self-identifies as trans, is such that it's a drug, it's a steroid. There's this almost an idea that I might turn into the graphic novel of The Hulk. And the reality is we don't have this when we look at people taking insulin or the idea of a cis man taking testosterone because they're needing hormone replacement therapy.
So trying to show up and demonstrate that the hardest part about taking hormone replacement therapy in the literal, the practical sense is injecting myself. And I wanted the world to see that that's the human aspect here, it's an injection and that the before and after, I look the same, nothing dramatic happens. It's a journey, it's a process to physically transitioning. And so showing that, making it more human, really deconstructing the stereotypes and the assumptions. I've been surprised by some of the questions. I feel like there are no wrong questions and that's kind of how I approach life. I'm open to curiosity. It's just surprised me what different understandings are of HRT. So it was a vulnerable moment for sure, and I definitely felt some discomfort. And at the same time, taking testosterone has been the greatest gift I have ever given myself, that I show up every day and I love who I am. And I also wanted the world to see that, that something that has been demonized potentially looks way more harmless than they've ever imagined, and it's actually a gift.
So I think it was a lot of things. Thank you for asking about that and for also asking something that could have been perceived as invasive. Yeah, I think the more we can talk about what being trans looks like, it's a spectrum and the more we can talk about it, the more we can break down that harm that exists.

Josh Watson:
Eva, I have another question for you. When the documentary was being put together, was there ever a point where you said, "This is something that we have to put in here," and if so, I wonder what that would've been?

Eva Fejes:
That's a good question. I definitely wanted to break down as many stereotypes as we could, and find different ways to do that. Something that I've faced repeatedly has been people assuming that Ness relies on me a lot. Like, "Isn't Ness's family so grateful to you that you take care of him?" Which is hilarious, if you know Ness, that's the biggest joke. Like in any relationship, we take turns showing up for each other. There have been times when Ness has supported me for long periods of time and had to step up. There is a balance in our relationship, absolutely, so I wanted to find ways to show that. And of course that extends in various ways, so both in terms of Ness being visually impaired, Ness being trans, Ness being a parent.
So I know one of the things that I was so glad made it in was a scene that I don't remember which episode it's in, but it's coming up. Ness ends up going to the playground and being able to show how Ness shows up for Zeb and the ways that he's found to adapt and that we've worked out to make it so that Zeb can have all the fun and freedom that she wants and I don't need to be there, and that Ness is absolutely a hugely active parent, hugely active. Something that isn't in the documentary but that I'll share that's really personal, is that I ended up having a Caesarean giving birth to Zeb, and that meant that Ness had to take care of Zeb alone for the first few days, like right in the deep end there, that's for sure.
The nurses were there to help, but they also couldn't be there all the time. And Ness was incredible. And then when we got home, then it was just us, and I mean, they get you out of hospital pretty fast after giving birth. So Ness did so many things in the beginning that were really hard, that we'd had no experience doing. He's an incredible guy and it's not just him, that's the whole thing about access, I wanted to highlight that so much. That access can be such a simple thing, it's such a nuanced thing and it's not a huge give and that we all need access in different ways, and we always link the idea of access to disability, but it's not. I need access, I need help with access. And so we have that opportunity to do that for each other every single day. So being able to have these bits in the documentary that show that Ness regularly does things, that breaks down a lot of the stereotypes, it was so important.

Brock Richardson:
We're joined by Eva Fajes and Ness Murby who are talking to us about Ness Murby Transcending and you're listening to The Neutral Zone, and I'm alongside Claire Buchanan and Josh Watson, and of course I'm your host Brock Richardson.

Claire Buchanan:
Okay Ness, one of my favourite sentences in sports, is the first, and you single-handedly pretty much are creating a space for trans men to compete at the Paralympic games. And what does that feel like to be in that space of being the first one possibly, and what has your training for the games been like so far?

Ness Murby:
It's such an honour, I think that's part of what I've recognized in my journey, that the responsibility is coupled with feeling humbled and honoured to be able to hold this space, because we all deserve the opportunity to show up as our authentic selves. And so part of my journey in this, holding space as the first, is about an excitement for what will come after me. To my mind, it's not so much about me, it's actually about everybody else. And that's what drives me, that's what excites me and the grind, it looks pretty similar. The training, the working hard, this wedding, the things that are different now is the balancing as a dad and my priorities there and that's joy.
I think also what's interesting for me is I'm okay to be my authentic self, to go from being world top six and climbing again from the bottom up. I'm okay with that because what I know is that the next someone will be starting as their authentic self, and that excites me. If I can hold this space for as long as I can, I will, because sport is a right for every person. And if I can be the first, nobody else has to do that, and then we get to just see people's potential and that's really exciting.

Josh Watson:
One last question from me for both of you, and Ness, we'll start with you if you don't mind. I'm wondering what message you would want to convey to the world through this documentary?

Ness Murby:
I think something that I hope for our world is that we can start showing up for one another, asking questions, showing interest rather than making assumptions. And that means that each of us has to show up in a different way. I need to be okay with questions, and I'm hoping that people will then also be inclined to ask them. And what I mean by that is something that I came to recognize is in my journey, I self-identified in a way that wasn't reflective of who I am. I was given the label gay because individuals who are assigned female at birth, who are attracted to other individuals assigned female at birth, we give that label gay. And that held me and supported me for a period of time. I didn't ask questions, I made assumptions. I assumed that in that relationship that there's one person who feels like me, who's just waiting to be a dad and feels like a husband.
And it wasn't until I journeyed my life in that label that was given me, that I started to recognize that so many assumptions had been made and I'd made them, which was that people felt the way I did, and I started to discover that people don't feel the way that I do. That's not how these relationships work as a standard rule. And so part of my journey to myself was also having to recognize the assumptions that I'd made. And so I'm hoping that part of this documentary is going to unpack so many assumptions that are out there, because Eva and I, we're both first time parents. We've got a kid, we've got a dog, we've got a cat, we're up late at night, I drink coffee in the morning, tea all day. I try and read bedtime stories, we're relatable people. And at the same time, I have these labels that come with a lot of assumptions being made, and sometimes that assumption leads to a lot of harm.
So I'm hoping that as Ness Murby Transcending airs, that as people follow our journey, that common humanity is going to be unpacked. And for those people who are not trans, may they watch this and recognize that what they need to do is to be anti-trans phobic, be active, anti-ableist, anti-trans phobic, anti-racist. And for those of us who are trans, may this provide a safe space, a space where you can be seen, where you feel like you're not alone.

Brock Richardson:
As producers of programs, we get to decide who we reach out to to have different conversations, and sometimes on this program, we put these interviews in a 15-minute box. And I knew that there's no way I could put Ness in a box because Ness says in the intro, "I don't belong in a box." And so we let this interview breathe, we let it go. And I think it's a great thing that we did that. Ness and Eva, we greatly appreciate your time and your honesty and all those things. And I urge everybody out there to check out Ness Murby Transcending, it airs Wednesdays at 8:00 PM Eastern time, and I have seen the second episode, which is coming out on Wednesday this week, and I shed some tears, and I'm not a guy who sheds a lot of tears, and there's something that happens in that episode that makes you shed some tears, and I just love the honesty. So thank you both for doing this and we greatly appreciate it.

Ness Murby:
Thank you so much for holding space for us, for creating space, and for showing up as your authentic selves. You make a difference being visible, and I really appreciate it and it makes me feel stronger every time I see people such as yourselves doing that for us.

Brock Richardson:
You're most welcome and we'll have to have you back on the program. When you do become the first Paralympic trans man, we will be here waiting for you and giving you a space. And of course, we'll do that many times before that. Again, I repeat, Transcending airs Wednesdays at 8:00 PM Eastern. That was Ness Murby and Eva Fejes talking to us about the documentary. If you want to get ahold of us by voicemail, here's how you can do it.

Announcer:
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Brock Richardson:
If any of you have followed us through all of the iterations of this program, the one thing that I am synonymous for is leaving the last segment with very few minutes to go. And this is kind of where we are at this week, but not as bad. And I did this intentionally, as I said, because I just feel that certain conversations need their space, and I felt that this was a conversation that needed that. And we could move on and we're going to, but I just want quick reactions from both of you, because we get to ask the questions and hear the answer, but we don't usually get to react a lot. And with an interview like that, I think it's deservedly so. Claire, I'll start with you.

Claire Buchanan:
Well, one, it gave me chills and I myself was holding back a lot of emotions because it's a conversation that doesn't happen a lot. And it's exciting to see individuals like Ness creating new spaces for people that are looking for them. So yeah, it's definitely now in the category of one of my favourite interviews, being a part of this show, absolutely.

Josh Watson:
Yeah, that was was an amazing interview. I don't know if it was 30 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes, I don't know, but I enjoyed every minute of it. I've been lucky enough to compete at events that Ness has also competed in, so I've gotten to sort of peripherally know Ness and Eva, excuse me, and they're very warm, very open, very generous people. And to get the chance now to sit down with them and talk about this journey that they're on, was just really amazing, and I learned a lot.

Brock Richardson:
I got to shout-out, Greg David, who's from our marketing and communications department, and usually as I put together these shows, I usually get given the gamut and I'm trusted in putting this show together, and I do a really good job, for the most part, with a few edits here and there. But this week, I learned a lot on Greg David and making sure that we asked the right questions, we phrased it in the right way, because the very last thing that I wanted to do in this conversation was to make Ness and Eva go, "I am not coming back." And so I appreciate the help of Greg David putting it together and helping me fine-tune some of the things that I had written and appreciate the honesty of Eva and Ness.
Before we move on, I just want to say I loved Eva's answer about sticking with Ness through his transition. I think when people go through decisions in life, some partners stay, some partners go, some partners struggle. And to hear that Eva stayed with Ness because she loves him for who he is, that's one of the biggest points in all this that I will take away from the interview itself. And I loved it and I thought it was great, and we will have them back. And one of the things, he even brought up a segment idea that we're going to revisit in the near future, I'll leave it there for now, but we loved having them on, and again, thank you for your honesty and all that.
With the minimal amount of time we have left on the program, I want to talk about Toronto Raptors player, Fred VanVleet, who was fined $30,000 because of post-game comments made toward Ben Taylor, excuse me. And Josh, you had the headline and you said you had lots to say. So do tell me, what are your thoughts?

Josh Watson:
Well, I'll try not to take the remaining eight or 10 minutes that we have left, but essentially it boils down to this, an official is there to officiate the game and make sure that the game is played fairly. An official is not there to insert themselves into the game and become a factor in the result. And what we see time and time again with particularly the NBA, although Major League Baseball, and Major League baseball, and NBA, NFL, all these different sports, NHL as well, that's the one I was trying to think of, officials just have a way of calling a penalty in the last two minutes or making a decision that drastically changes the outcome of the game, and it just drives me crazy. And to my mind, the NBA is the worst for it because it seems to happen more and more. I now know the name of two officials in the NBA, when I shouldn't know the name of any official in the NBA, in my opinion.
We've heard now about Ben Taylor, and we always hear the name Scott Foster. And that goes back to the game before the game that Fred made his comments about, where Scott Foster decided in the last two minutes of a game, to rule against the Raptors, preventing free throws, rule in favor of, I believe it was the Denver Nuggets, I can't remember exactly which team now, but rule in favor of the other team, giving them free throws. And then threw Scottie Barnes out on a technical foul when he had no technicals prior to the interaction. And his excuse when he was asked was that, "Oh, he said something that was ..." I can't even remember the words he used, it doesn't matter. But basically he accused Scottie of calling out the officials.
Well, you know what? When you're doing your job poorly, you deserve to be called out. And some of these people do not do their jobs well. And so I really hope that the NBA in this case, doesn't just slap a fine on the player for speaking his mind. I hope he actually sits down with the player and listens to the concerns, because this kind of thing is what turns me off of the NBA, it's what makes it hard to watch the NBA because it's like, oh, what's this official going to call tonight that's going to screw up the game?

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah, that's exactly it, is that they're in crucial last minutes of any game, like you said, and it's happening in multiple organizations, is that they're no longer letting the athletes just play the game that they play, and they're enforcing a lot more control. And that's what they're doing, is they're trying to control a little bit more of the narrative of how these games end. And it blows my mind that players aren't able to speak up against that and not be fined or thrown out of games, like Scottie Barnes shouldn't have been thrown out of that game. Hands down. Yes, okay, if you want to give him a technical, fine, but that's no warrant to have him leave the game. So yeah, it's frustrating.
I hope that this puts in place and gives players an opportunity to feel like their voice matters. Because I mean, at the end of the day, the refs aren't playing the game, the coaches aren't playing the game, the fans aren't playing the game, it's the players playing the game. And that's where you should be taking the time to get constructive criticism, from the people that are actually taking part in these games. And let's be real here, in the next couple months, it's going to be playoff time, and then you're not going to call anything. So where are you going to find this balance of calling too many calls or holding back, because yeah, at the end of the day, you got to let them just play.

Brock Richardson:
What I don't like is hearing the argument, "Oh, they're 10th in the East, who cares, they're a playing team, nobody cares. Whatever." The fact is, a bad call is a bad call. Everybody, when you're not doing a good job in your job, you can sometimes be called out in a nice way, you can sometimes be called out in a not so nice way, and everything in between. Officials, this is their job, if they're not doing a good job, they need to be held accountable, and they need to be held accountable in more of a way, rather than just, "Oh, yeah, we talked to them and it's no big deal." They need more than your average, "Oh, we're sorry," kind of reaction, which is something that I've seen a lot as well, and I don't like it. So for me, the officials are meant to be mediators, and that is it. And I feel like we're crossing the line into where they are inserting themselves and making the outcome of the game because of a bad call, and that's not what an official is for.
That is the end of our show for this week, I would like to thank Josh Watson, Claire Buchanan. I'd also like to thank our technical producer and welcome him back from vacation, Mark [inaudible 00:51:34], our podcast coordinator is Ryan Delehanty. Tune in next week because you just never know what happens when you enter The Neutral Zone. Be safe and be well.