Automated:
Are you ready? Let's go. From AMI Central. Now start playing in the neutral zone. Here's a pitch on the way. 36 yards for the win. This ... Here comes the big chance, the shot. Is ... Is this the tiger? ... the neutral zone. This is as good as it gets. Now here's your host, two-time Paralympian Brock Richardson.

Brock Richardson:
Hey, what's going on? It's time for another edition of The Neutral Zone. I am indeed your host, Brock Richardson, and I have to start the showing in this way, by telling you that I love my internet provider. I love my internet provider. I love my internet provider. Yes, yes I do. I have had internet issues from Thursday of last week until today as we record this and it has been a nightmare. My whole area's been out, so if I drop out, one cam Jenkins and Josh Watson will take you the rest of the way, but we're going to give this a whirl and see how she rolls with me doing it. Apparently, when more than one person is having an issue in the same building, that means they can get a Rogers technician within 10 minutes to your house. But if it's only you, then they have to schedule it for next Tuesday to show up.
So that's the life of Rogers and how that works. But I did get a credit in which that I was satisfied with, which now needs to be more because I've been inconvenienced for one more day, but I digress. Let's see what's coming up on today's program. Daniel Bard has to take some time away from sports because he is struggling with his mental health. We chat about that and we also chat a little bit about our own experience with mental health challenges in our own sport. Plus, we're going to be chatting about trash-talking in sports, whether good, bad or indifferent and how it translates from men to women's sports. With that, let's get into our headlines for this week.

Automated:
Neutral Zone headline headlines.

Josh Watson:
A mainstay in the Ontario para ice hockey community has decided to hang up his skates and clipboard. Todd Sergeant, the longtime head coach and founding member of the London Blizzard para ice hockey team has decided to retire at the conclusion of Champions Day weekend, which took place April 1st and 2nd. Todd has worn many hats in the para ice hockey community, including his time as the head coach of the intermediate London Blizzards team, as well as head coach of Sledge Team Ontario, and Canada's national ice hockey development team. He was also invited to Russia as a consultant in the years leading up to the 2014 Paralympics as the country developed their para-ice hockey program. We at the neutral zone have some experience meeting and knowing Todd. We wish him all the best.

Brock Richardson:
Prince Edward Island is the latest province to become partners with Boccia Canada in an effort to grow the game in that province. If you are interested, please go to bocciacanada.ca for more details. Boccia is spelled B-O-C-C-I-A, and of course Canada is C-A-N-A-D-A. For more details.

Cameron Jenkins:
The madness of March is in the books for another year. We send out congratulations to the Yukon Huskies men's program and UCLA's women's program as both of these schools won their national championships respectively.

Josh Watson:
World's Men's Curling Championship has finished up. We send our congratulations out to Brad Gushue and Team Canada as they finished second to Team Scotland at this year's very entertaining event. It was an excellent week of curling, including two very, very entertaining games between Team Canada and Team Sweden and a tough finish against a very, very good Scotland team, who I believe if memory serves me, had a 96% effectiveness rating by the end of the game, which is almost perfect. So congratulations Team Scotland and congratulations team Canada on your second-place finish.

Brock Richardson:
Those are your headlines for this week and I send out my, also congratulations to Brad and his rink as it was a tough ending, but we'd love to see Canada bring home medals at World Championships. I think I was really fascinated by the emotion he expressed at the end of the game with Kathy Gocha, talking about the crowd and what they meant and it was just a really great atmosphere and really enjoyed watching them all week. For this week's chat topic, last week I was going to bring this up, but then I forgot to bring it up because I forgot what it was I was going to bring up so let's bring it up this week.
The MLB is off and running. And I don't know if you guys have heard about this from the opening week of the Major League baseball season, but there was a guy who went onto the field at Dodgers Stadium to propose to his then-girlfriend on the field. Obviously, no one was aware of this situation from a game operations point of view because he was subsequently tackled on the field and separated his shoulder. Did you guys see this for one, and your reaction is what. Cameron, start with you.

Cameron Jenkins:
No, I didn't have the pleasure of seeing that, but I certainly heard about it and wow. How does something like that happen? I can't do anything but laugh and it's just funny.

Josh Watson:
Yeah, I didn't see it live, but I certainly have seen the replays after the fact and buddy certainly got tackled. There was no messing around with security on that one. I guess that's a lesson to always let game ops know what you're doing before you do it because the results cannot always go in your favour. But I think you're probably going to tell us, Brock, I believe she did say yes. So hopefully she can nurse him back to health.

Cameron Jenkins:
After that I certainly hope so. It would be so brutal if he gets tackled and got a no. Oh my gosh.

Josh Watson:
Yeah, that would be awful.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, she did in fact say, yes, you are correct. But I just think security is so ingrained in, somebody on the field must tackle them and must get them off the field. That is just what they are intended to do, trained to do all those things.

Cameron Jenkins:
I don't know about trained.

Brock Richardson:
I do think it was a bit egregious. I was reading on social media this week as we did this. I was reading though that the guy thought that probably because they saw a ring coming out and he was proposing, the guy was hoping that this didn't result in a tackle. My reaction to that is still the following. If they are trained, ingrained to do this, then they're going to do it as soon as they see somebody on the field, they're not going to stop and go, I wonder if he's proposing. It's just a matter of go and do-

Josh Watson:
Exactly.

Cameron Jenkins:
No, it's tackle ask questions later. And why would you go out on the field of play when you're not supposed to? You've seen it many times. Just go on YouTube and look at tackle highlights of baseball field or I don't know what you would do a search in, but it happens all the time. Don't go out on the field. I thought that was just common sense, but I guess common sense isn't so common.

Josh Watson:
Well, there's that and I think we also have to remember not only is it 15 minutes of fame for him, but it's also 15 minutes of fame for the guy who tackles him, which I think is why you see some of these spectacular football style assaults quite frankly.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, I guess you see them more on the NFL highlights or whatever of people getting tackled by whether it's the security-

Josh Watson:
Yeah, I think that's usually-

Cameron Jenkins:
... or the actual players.

Josh Watson:
... though, that do that tackling.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, for sure.

Josh Watson:
But it was certainly entertaining. And yeah, I'm just glad number one, he's going to get all those bones put back in place and then for two that he didn't lose the ring in the process. Can you imagine not only getting tackled, but then having to say to your fiance, your ring is somewhere in left field, dear, I'm not quite sure where it went after I got blindsided.

Brock Richardson:
Fair. So yeah, there have been some pretty good calls because of course, you can't see these things anymore when individuals try to get onto the field. But there is a football one that happened in the last number of years, and I believe it's Marv Albert who did this call, but it was a cat who ran onto the field. And plus then I believe there was also a person and the person, he was calling them as if they had run to the 10 to the 5 and then he got down to and a tackle. It's just amazing.
And so broadcasters who are aware that you shouldn't be seeing this anymore because that's what people want, it's one of those things. But I thought to myself when watching it, I thought, oof, that's a pretty good tackle. But then when I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, but they're supposed to do that because those players are worth millions and millions of dollars and they don't want anyone getting harmed and hurt. So when you're going to propose to your girlfriend, think twice before you jump on a field without letting game ops know exactly what's going on ahead of time. With that, let's get you caught up onto how you can get connected with us on Twitter.

Automated:
And welcome back to the Neutral Zone AMI broadcast booth. Play ball. And we are set to get this ballgame underway. The first pitch brought to you by Brock Richardson's Twitter account at neutral zone BR. Strike. First pitch, strike. And hey gang, why not strike up a Twitter chat with Claire Buchanan from the neutral zone, find her at neutral zone CB. And there's a swing and a chopper out to second base right at Claire. She picks up the ball, throws it over to first base for a routine out. And fans, there is nothing routine about connecting with Cam and Josh from the neutral zone. At neutral zone CamJ&@JWatson200. Now that's a winning combination. And this organ interlude is brought to you by AMI Audio on Twitter. Get in touch with the neutral zone type in @AMIaudio.

Brock Richardson:
Every once in a while we delve into some fairly deep conversations in sports and today's episode title Anxiety is Real in Sports really is because of this segment that we're going to do now. And in case you're unfamiliar, I'm going to give you the background of this and then we're going to get into the conversation. Colorado Rockies reliever Daniel Bard is taking some time away from his major league club to get some help with his own personal anxiety issues. I wanted to discuss this incredible bravery of Danielle Bard. This is from his write-up that was put on the internet. It says, "I wanted to discuss the incredible bravery of Daniel Bard, and the former Red Sox pitcher and current closer of the Colorado Rocky who has openly been struggling with his anxiety." We have all played sports in one way or another, when you first heard this, what is your first reaction to this story, Josh.

Josh Watson:
Good for him. It takes a lot of courage to admit when you're having struggles, it's not something that is easy and you can at times face a lot of ridicule. And so for him to be brave enough to stand up and say, I need to step away, I need help. That's huge because you then show other people that it's okay to not be okay sometimes and I applaud him. I hope that he's able to get the help he needs and that we're able to see him on a baseball diamond again in the future because he is a dynamic pitcher when he is able to perform.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, I've had my own anxiety and/or depression issues. And I am proud of him to acknowledge that he has these issues and even more so that he's stepping away from the game to be able to deal with them. Especially in today's society, there's a huge stigma just on mental health, but even more so for men with mental health. Men are taught, be it on purpose or not, they have to suck it up, that they have to deal with it, that they have to do all of that. And those are probably the couple of the biggest stigmas that men have to deal with. So for him to be a trailblazer and to be able to be a great role model to say, "Hey, this is what I'm going through and I need to take some time off to be able to deal with."
Hopefully, that's the start of a lot of people being able to do that. And it's going to take a celebrity or a sports person that has a lot of clout to be able to admit this, that they have these challenges and to be able to step away, I think, before people really start to notice it and to be able to say that it's okay to step away and to be able to deal with the challenges that you're going through. Because in today's world it's still a huge stigma, especially for men and I hope it changes.

Brock Richardson:
I think the thing that I have begun to understand is that people automatically want to say, oh, because you make lots of money, therefore you don't have this problem. And I think for me, this is where we get into that conversation of why would we even go there? And it's the comments that I've seen of, oh, just go get a therapist. I don't think it's that easy. In fact, I know it's not that easy. And you play sports, you get to represent your team and in some cases your country, so put on your big boy pants and go to work. All of that is easy for people to say, but it's not easy for them to put it into action. And I think the place that I want to begin the next step of this conversation is, I want to start by discussing the difference between the nerves you feel and then the genuine anxiety and what is the difference for you guys between those two starting with Cameron.

Cameron Jenkins:
For me, I've had anxiety or panic attacks and there is a difference between anxiety and panic attacks. Quickly, anxiety, you kind of know what's bothering you, but you still have an anxiety attack. A panic attack is you don't know the reason why you're having an attack. I've had both and it's very hard to deal with. Everyone's different on how they deal with those, but a lot of it you'll hear about how people have a cloudy mind, everything just clouds over and you can't think straight. For me, my arms would also shake, the few times that it happened as well. But then they've also been less as far as before a big game, I'd have a lot of anxiety and I'd throw up, or going back to regular work throwing up as well.
So it can come in all forms and shapes and sizes. And just to go on what you were saying before, Brock, it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor or tall or short or everything in between, it can affect anybody. So hopefully people realize that. And dealing with anxiety and/or depression, different things work for different people. So one of the things is people would say to me, "Oh, go for a walk." And I'm able to walk, but that didn't necessarily help. Meditation helped me a little bit more or when people would say, oh, well because I'm a bit heavier, that's why I'm going through depression. And that's not necessarily the case because other people are super skinny and they're also going through it too. So yeah, I just wanted to mention that as well.

Josh Watson:
I've been fairly lucky in that in my sporting career I've never gotten necessarily to a level where I've felt those kind of anxiousness, I suppose. I would never consider myself to have anxiety when it comes to sports, necessarily. Much like you, Cameron, I've definitely experienced it dealing with work in the past. And for me, it manifests, if you will, as insomnia or sleeping at the wrong times.

Cameron Jenkins:
For sure.

Josh Watson:
I know there was one experience where I had a performance review at work, and it did not go well, and I spent the next three nights not sleeping because I was convinced that I was going to be fired. I wasn't. They pointed out the things that I needed to work on and I worked on them. But you don't necessarily always know where your mind is going to take you and it can go to some pretty dark places. It really can. In terms of sport, I've certainly had the butterflies and I've certainly played in big events. I've been to national championships as a track and field athlete. I've been in hockey tournaments where we've played teams from other countries.
And I can remember a Brampton tournament whereas a forward, we played against a team from Russia and we were told, oh, don't worry, they're a sea team, they're not that big a deal. It'll be fine. It'll be a fun hockey game. Thank God I wasn't the goalie because we got skated around like pylons. But it was a situation where I looked at it and went sea team, yeah right, okay, sure, I believe that. So I never put any pressure on myself. Having been a goalie and been through some of the games I've been through recently, and Brock, you've seen one of those games or almost two of those games, those are big games for sure.
But I've been lucky in that I've been able to compartmentalize and remind myself that the results of this game is not the end of the world. It's nerve-wracking in the moment when you're facing a six-round shootout to decide whether you go to a gold medal game or a few years ago on 11 round shootout, which we won't even get into. But again, I was able to say, okay, whatever happens, happens. And that's not easy to do, I'm sure.

Cameron Jenkins:
Not at all.

Josh Watson:
And so I certainly bow to those that do go through it because Cam, I've watched you go through it, through your struggles. And there's so much you want to do to help, but no one gives you the tools to help.

Cameron Jenkins:
Well, and that's where you've got to go out and you've got to find the tools and a great place to start is going to your doctor and talking about your mental health and then you start your journey from there. And mine led me to the Canadian Mental Health Association and they do teach you a lot of techniques there. So you have to be able to want to change or to find a solution, first and foremost. And then once you start to go through that process of this is what you need to do and you need to be able to modify your thoughts so you don't put as much pressure on yourselves. And instead of calling them for me mistakes, calling them, I can't even remember what I'm supposed to call them because mistakes is learning experiences, oversights, that's what I was taught to call them is oversight.
And everyone has anxiety in lots of different ways. In regards to this picture, depending on what the anxiety issues are, he's going to have to work for his therapist. Well, I can't speak for the states, but I can only speak for Ontario, that it is can be very difficult to find the right fit. You may be able to find a psychologist because I believe in Ontario you can see a psychologist and that's part of OHIP. But it's finding the right one because there's lots of different therapists and you really have to be able to one that you're able to open up and talk to and that can be very difficult to do. And there's a huge difference between short-term counselling, which a lot of EAPs, which is employee assistance plans are, and long-term counselling where you have more of a rapport. So you have to find the right one for you at the end of the day.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, I agree 100% with what you both have said. I think that it's easy for people to say, oh, just go see a sports psychologist. A psychologist in and of themselves, it's easy to say that. It's not easy to sit in a room with somebody and literally divulge what's going on in your life and say, okay, and let's do this. It's not that easy. And I think the one thing that I want to come back to here on this, two things, number one is that Daniel Bard is a closer. There isn't any bigger pressure, in my opinion in Major League baseball than being a closer because you are likely not coming into a game that's 7/1, you're likely coming into a situation where it's 2 on and 2 out. In that sort of situation there is big pressure associated with that.
Jordan Romano makes it look very easy as the Toronto Blue Jays have gotten familiar with seeing, but it is not an easy situation to be in and be involved in. The second thing I would say is that the general public as a whole needs to have a better grasp and understanding on how to handle athletes. And I can remember many a time I would lose games and I would come off the court and I would just be really upset with myself because I felt that those were things that were in my control and I should have done this and that better. And if I only did A, B and C, the result would've been different. And the thing that I hated the most, even though I know that it was genuinely intended, but what I hated was people would come and say, it's okay, get them next time, let me help you with this and that.
It's like, no, let me have my moment. Let me do this, and then when I'm ready to come to you, then I'll come to you. I think sometimes during big moments and big situations, Josh, it's like people just want to help, but then in the moment they don't realize, oh yeah, but that's an athlete who might just want to compartmentalize the loss to themselves before speaking to others.

Josh Watson:
It's also a matter of some people are competitive. And so I would come off the ice after a close game that we lose and I could tell you exactly what I did that I should have done differently, but in the moment I was upset. And I even had a player or two come to me afterwards and say, "You need to calm down because you can't react that way, you're representing our team." And I understood what they were saying, but in the moment that was not what you needed to tell me. I really didn't care what the opinion of people around me was. But I don't want to gloss over something Cam mentioned earlier, which is that men especially are not taught how to deal with things. We are told you need to be the rock, you need to be the shoulder to cry on, you need to be this, you need to be that. When it comes to sports-

Cameron Jenkins:
Not to show any emotion.

Josh Watson:
... boys don't cry. When you're an athlete as well, you have the people that come up to you and go, "Oh, it's just a game, don't worry. It's not the end of the world."

Brock Richardson:
And that's the worst thing people can say, the worst.

Josh Watson:
Absolutely, absolutely. It's just a game. It's no big deal. Yeah, I understand.

Cameron Jenkins:
Or they say it's not so bad or they relate it to somebody else in saying, "Well, at least you're not in this situation."

Josh Watson:
Exactly.

Cameron Jenkins:
Which when a person does that, they're not caring about my-

Josh Watson:
They're diminishing me.

Cameron Jenkins:
... about my feelings. Yeah, they're diminishing, which is not a good way to deal with it either.

Josh Watson:
Exactly. And I can only imagine what it's like if you're a professional athlete hearing that, because for you, it's not just a game, it is your livelihood and your livelihood may only last 1, 2, 5, maybe 10 years at the most. And then you get to the end of your career and you go, now what? Now what do I do? And I can't even wrap my head around what that must be like.

Cameron Jenkins:
Oh, especially for a relief pitcher, they're a dime a dozen and people are always complaining about them, and that they're a dime a dozen and it doesn't matter. But it's their livelihood. And a lot of people like us or other people may not have sympathy for them because it's like, well, you just made a million dollars this year and you don't have to work another day in your life. But to them it's huge. They still want to play and have a long career.

Josh Watson:
Absolutely.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, it's tough.

Brock Richardson:
I'll take this as an example. Being involved in radio making mistakes or learning opportunities as I was taught in my life, making mistakes and learning from them is really hard to teach yourself because you want to come out here and you want to say, I want to do a really good job. I want everyone to be happy with it. And as I joked off the top of the show about loving my internet provider, the last thing I wanted to do was leave my team, even though I know that they're in good hands and they have all the tools in front of them that's been put together. But I know this is a three-person show, and so for me it's like, yeah, well how dare my wifi be off and I can't do this and I want to be a part of it.
People say, oh, it's so great that you're in radio and so this and that, and then you want to stop and say, yeah, but it's my livelihood, it's what does it. And so it translates in all aspects of life, and I think people need to recognize that. And even though they're trying to help, sometimes those comments don't really help in the situation, they only compound the issue and make it worse. I do want to ask you guys just to take this in a bit of a different direction. We've obviously established that nerves and anxiety can translate into para sport as well, but do you think they can translate differently into para sports? And I'll give you my example to start the conversation. My response to this is yes, because the individual is battling their disability and their challenges on top of their individual sport challenges on top of all that. Do you guys think there are other reasons why it translates differently? And if so, what is it? Cameron, start with you.

Cameron Jenkins:
Well, I'm assuming you're talking about able-bodied athletes and disabled athletes, correct?

Brock Richardson:
Yes. Yeah.

Cameron Jenkins:
Okay. Yeah. I think each individual person, whether they're able-bodied or disabled it's different for everybody as far as why they might be having anxiety or depression issues. And yes, for a person with a disability, maybe they're having problems with their legs or their equipment. Like I call it a splint, I think it's called an AFO these days, might be broken or not fitting well, things like that that could cause some anxiety and or depression. But for an able-bodied athlete, maybe it's because they're married and they're having problems at home or that their equipment isn't working properly too. So yes, disabled athletes maybe have anxiety and/or depression because of their disability, but I really look at it as like we're all equals. And if you have anxiety, you have anxiety. And even though you're not having anxiety about your disability, obviously it's about something else. And having anxiety, isn't that a type of disability regardless?

Josh Watson:
I look at it as not necessarily that it's different for para-athletes, I just look at it as a different struggle. So an able-bodied athlete might have issues with their skates that day, or maybe they're using a new stick that they haven't used before and that causes them some concerns or some worries or some anxiety. With a para-athlete, you also have equipment, but you also have, in the case of an athlete with CP, you might be going through a lot of tremors that day and that affects your performance. I think para-athletes, or excuse me, I think able-bodied athletes, thank you, I think they have their own issues that we may not experience as para-athletes. So it's not necessarily that one has more or that one struggles more, it's just that they're different.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. I look at anxiety and the nerves. I look at teammates being very important. I'm going to go back to the Toronto Blue Jays, and I know we've joked about this in the past and we will continue to joke about it as a team, but in this instance, it's not necessarily a joke. I look at teammates who really dragged out, Yusei Kikuchi out of dugouts last year at the end of the year and said, we want you to be part of this. We want you to be part of the celebration because we know that you had struggles this year. We know that this is what you went through, but you're still part of our team.
And how long of a way that goes to help somebody. And what I've seen from Yusei Kikuchi thus far is pretty impressive. And I would not hazard to bet, I would bet to you that part of it is that he's felt that the organization has bought into him, his teammates have bought into him. And if his teammates just left him in the dugout and said, we're just going to go celebrate this, that changes it in and of itself. Cameron, and I know you're a big Yusei Kikuchi guy, but that's why I want to give you first crack here because we learned that this week on the broadcast that he was dragged out on the field as part of a teammate. So your reaction to hearing that is what?

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, it's my boy Kikuchi and I think he's going to have a really good year this year. A bit of a stumble last game, but they still won the game. Yeah, especially when you're a baseball team, you lose together, you win together. So everybody should be out there on the field regardless because it took everybody to get to where you are. Even if it is Kikuchi, he didn't have a good year last year, but he also was part of the team and they still won some of those games that he was in and gave up some runs, but then another pitcher came in and carried up the rear for the team to win. So yeah, shout out to my boy Kikuchi. Let's go.

Josh Watson:
Yeah, I think it's important that somebody on the team is looking around and making sure that somebody isn't off in a corner by themselves or what have you, because you are a team. And I know from my hockey season this season, we didn't have a great season, but we win as a team and we lose as a team. And our coaching staff has always preached that. And so I know there were times where I was frustrated with my teammates and there were times where my teammates were frustrated with me. What was important for me was to go to those players that I might have been hard on during a game and say, "Hey, I know it was a little rough on you today, but I'm still counting on you. You're still my teammate and we're still going to get through this together."
And I wasn't always perfect at it, but I tried because I didn't want my reactions or my comments to be the comment that puts someone in a place where I don't want to be here, I don't want to do this or what have you. At the end of it, I'm competitive. And so when I see something happening on the ice that needs to change, I'll speak up. And I may not speak up in the most appropriate way, but when everything calms, I can look back on it and say, oh, okay, I was a little hard on that person, so I'm going to go seek them out and say, "Hey, I'm sorry I didn't mean to be that hard on you, but I know you can do this and I'm here for you and let's do this. Let's get this done together."

Cameron Jenkins:
As long as you take ownership of that, which you do, then I think that says a lot about your character personally. And that's a great thing.

Brock Richardson:
And I think too, the other side of this coin that's very tough is the person who doesn't know their role on a team or knows they're going to have a lesser role on a team. There are many players who will say, I don't know what my role on X team was. And they literally have to bite the bullet and say, I'm going to be a teammate, I'm going to be there. And that is a really hard role to play, that role that you don't know when your opportunity's going to come that role, when you have no clue when, if you're going to play in game one, in game 10, in game 30, you don't know. And that's very hard to do. I did it in 2011, no, pardon me, I did it in 2013. We went back to China for the world championships, and I was literally told when I got the call from the coach, I was literally told, you're going to be that bench person. You're going to be that senior role on the team.
First of all, hearing senior role at the age of 27 was like, oh, yikes, okay, this is how we're going to go. But it's very hard and it's very hard to put on your pom-poms and say, go team go, when you feel you didn't have much of a contribution. But my contribution in that role was to help develop the program because I knew that my days were numbered. I knew that it was coming to an end, but I wasn't going to miss an opportunity to put those colours on and my country pride because I wanted a bigger role. We all want bigger roles as athletes. You ask any athlete in any sport, they're going to tell you, yeah, we want to be the guy, but unfortunately on a 30-guy team or girl team, there's going to be those players that aren't going to play as big a role. And those players that play the lesser roles or not as forefront are the ones that really help push a team over the edge. Josh?

Josh Watson:
Absolutely. I have been in situations prior to being a goalie in Paradise Hockey where I was a forward. And we would get to a critical point in a game, and Cam, I'm sure you were on these teams with me, where the coach looks at us and goes, "Okay, guys, what are we going to do? Are we going to keep rolling lines and everybody's going to get equal ice, or are we going to cut the bench down and some of you guys are going to sit for a period?"
Well, I'm a teammate. I want my guys to win, and if that means I have to sit, then that meant I had to sit. And there were a few games where I got really cold because we got down early and we had to put our big guns out on the ice for most of that game in order just to keep it respectable. And that's just what we had to do. It wasn't easy. I didn't like it, but at the end, I wasn't going to say to my team, no, I deserve that ice time when I knew my conditioning or my skills were not what the team needed at that time.

Cameron Jenkins:
And it's very tough to be able to admit that. Yeah, Josh, I've been in those situations too where, you know, end up sitting on the bench on your sledge. And then you're not out there hardly at all, so then your skate blades end up digging into the ice and you can't move because they've frozen over. And yeah, that's certainly happened. And then being in goal, and you can relate to this too, you're out there all the time for the entire 60 minutes or however long a para ice hockey game is.
So, but yeah, it takes a lot to be able to look at yourself to say, okay, this is what I can contribute, and I've got to stay within these lines because you want to be the one to make the great save or to score the winning goal or to be out there all the time eating up those minutes. And yeah, it's so hard, and especially when we've played with the cruisers and they want to do the ice time the same and everyone can play as well. So yeah, it's hard being a coach to be able to want to win, but still respect other people to get as much playing time as possible. And yeah, I'm glad that I don't have to make those decisions.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, I think the thing I'll say, and then we'll move on to trash-talking in sports. The other side of all this is you are the person sitting on the bench. What you don't want to fall into is hoping that one of your teammates fails enough that you get onto the field of play, because that can be a dangerous game to play as well, where you're like, I want to play, I want to do this, I want to do this, but what does that mean? That means that one of my teammates has to, in essence, struggle, fail and that's a real hard pill to swallow sitting on the bench because you have to balance between am I being a good teammate here?
Well, obviously not if I'm sitting here in my head going, gee, I hope so and so fails so I can get on. But it's the battle you play as athletes in your head of, what am I doing here, what's the feel and that kind of thing. So yeah, that's the way that that conversation goes. And again, Daniel Bard, we wish you nothing but the best in your time away and we hope to see you on the field. And with that, if you'd like to get ahold of us by voicemail, here's how you can do it.

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Brock Richardson:
It's always tough because when we do this show, we have great content and then we leave with a little bit of time to discuss the other topic. And that usually happens when there's no guest because I, as producers say, okay, let's just run through this and see what happens. Great conversation on anxiety, mental health and sports. If you missed it, go back into the podcast and that's where you can catch it on any of your podcasting platforms and/or YouTube. We're everywhere.
Let's chat a little bit about trash-talking in sports. This was brought to us by Claire Buchanan, who, speaking of anxiety, must be having some anxiety because her sledge broke and she is currently getting it welded back together. So yeah, this is speaking of anxiety and stress, I'm sure that's going through the mind of one Clair Buchanan as her national team season gets going very soon. So we hope that her sledge gets welded back together and all as well. But let's start here. Let's start whether or not you guys feel that trash-talking is a necessary thing in sports. Josh, start with you and then Cameron.

Josh Watson:
I have never been somebody who trash talks or likes to trash talk. You want to trash-talk me, go ahead, you're not going to get a reaction out of me. It does not affect me. Having said that, I do know some people who have it as a very big part of their game and they need to do it in order to be into the game, so to speak. But for me, I wouldn't be disappointed if it was gone, quite frankly.

Cameron Jenkins:
As far as I'm concerned, I think that it can be a powerful tool. And talking about mental health, I think you need to have a very good mental health to be at the highest level in sports. And a lot of people use it as a technique to try to get at a person off of their game, whatever that game is. So I think it can be a useful tool. However, at that level of competitiveness, I'm hoping that it doesn't affect a lot of people, but you hear a lot of what goes on with hockey or soccer, name another team sports where there's more than one person on the field, Basketball.

Josh Watson:
Basketball.

Cameron Jenkins:
I think that it happens all of the time, but it's trying to get that competitive edge to get somebody off of their game to be able to win the game. So it's just part of the game. And in my Disney world, fantasy world, I would like to not have it there and just show the physical skills of a man or woman to be able to win that way, rather than trying to insult them or trying to get them off their game by insulting them. And some of those insults, they can be really hurtful or harmful. So I prefer to see it out of the game as well, but I understand why it's in there and I think it's always going to be there.

Brock Richardson:
I think to, the other side of this is that, yes, it can be used as a tool, but I always look at it this way. If you have to go to the level of trash-talking me to get me off my game, then I've got you where I want you. Because if you have to go to that level, that means that I'm in your head and you feel that you have to get in mind to be able to get an edge on me. And I'm like you, Josh, if that's what you have to do, that's what you do. You do you and I'll do me. But I always looked at it as if you are resorting to trash-talking, got you. Exactly where I want you. And it's just that simple. Cameron, are there any positive things of trash talking that you could just outline if you had any that you could think of?

Cameron Jenkins:
Well, I think that if the positive of trash talking is that if you're able to get somebody off of their game and not playing quite as well and then you're able to score a goal because of that or they just make a lot of mistakes by handling the basketball, the hockey puck, the bocce ball, whatever it is, then I think that's the positive of trash talking. Because especially at such a high competitive level, you want to win. And we've just talked about how competitive that all of us are, so I think that's the positive to trash-talking.

Brock Richardson:
Josh, if any, what would you say there would be positive?

Josh Watson:
Positives, it's kind of hard for me to identify a positive necessarily. I suppose there's a sense of accomplishment, if I've gotten into your head and I've gotten you thinking about something else instead of being focused on the game. From my own perspective, as I said, I'm not much of a trash talker, but I'll do something like take the trapper, the glove that I wear for hockey, and I'll hold the glove out here and I'll just flap it like this just to get you looking at that. And invariably guys will shoot at it because it's in their vision.

Cameron Jenkins:
Oh, I thought you were going to go somewhere else with that.

Josh Watson:
No, no, I don't hit people with my glove. Come on. I would never do something like that.

Cameron Jenkins:
Well, what if they're coming into crash into your crease and they-

Josh Watson:
Well then they get what they get.

Cameron Jenkins:
... do it more than once. I've done that before, where I've held out my glove because we have little screws on the end of it-

Josh Watson:
Little spikes, yeah.

Cameron Jenkins:
... where I'm like, okay, well if you're going to keep crashing into me, I'm putting the-

Josh Watson:
I'm going to turn you into a pin cushion.

Cameron Jenkins:
... literally the screws to you. Exactly. Sorry, that's where I thought you were going with that.

Josh Watson:
Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, I've thought about it and certainly I will brace myself and if I happen to brace myself with my gloves sticking out, well then that happens.

Cameron Jenkins:
Accidentally, on purpose.

Josh Watson:
I don't do it deliberately, at least publicly I don't do it deliberately. But no, from my perspective, I would never say that I see a necessary positive in trash talk. I certainly think that trash-talking is all in good fun, it's all within the game as long as you don't go into somebody's race, religion, orientation, all of the big things that we all know you shouldn't go into. When you're stooping to that level, that's where I draw the line. And you're probably going to get more than just a remark from me, you're going to get a reaction out of me if you go there. But otherwise, it's just all part-

Cameron Jenkins:
What if we talk about your beard?

Josh Watson:
Eh, go ahead. Talk about my brillo brush. I don't care.

Brock Richardson:
I would like to see trash-talking removed from sports. There isn't much of a positive game from trash-talking. As I mentioned earlier, if you are trash-talking somebody and you're getting them off their game, I don't know that that's the best way you want to play sports. Do I ever think that trash-talking will be removed from sports? No, I don't. You're talking about human nature. You're talking about humans who try to get a competitive edge and that's how they work. But no, is there ever going to be a world where trash-talking will be removed? No, it won't.
And if people think they will be, I think they're living in Cameron's Disney World Land, and that's fine if that's where you want to live, but I don't see a world where it will be removed in one way or another. With that, that is the end of our show for this week. I'd like to thank Josh Watson, Cam Jenkins. I'd also like to thank our technical producer, Mark Aflalo. Our podcast coordinator is Ryan Delehanty. Stay tuned next week as you never know what happens when you enter the neutral zone. Be safe and be well.