The Long Game - August 1, 2023

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Are you ready?

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Yeah, let's go.

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From AMI Central.

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Now, circling in the neutral zone.

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Here's a pitch on the way.
Thirty-six yards for the win.

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This...

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Here comes a big chance. The shot...

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Is...

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Is this the tiger?

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The Neutral Zone.

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Goal.

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Oh, my God.

Speaker 9:
This is as good as it gets.

Speaker 3:
Now, here's your host, two-time Paralympian, Brock Richardson.

Brock Richardson:
What's going on? It's time for another edition of The Neutral Zone. And guess what? I am indeed your host, Brock Richardson. I've been away for the last little while, came back, excited to give you another wonderful program. Let me tell you a little bit about what's coming up on said program.
We released another interview from the Canadian Paralympic Committee Summit. Today, we speak with long jump athlete, Jesse Zesseu, who's going... Zesseu, excuse me, from Toronto, Ontario. Plus, we're going to talk a little bit about Major League Baseball as we head into the last leg of the season. And the trade deadline is almost upon us as we record this episode. I'm joined by Josh Watson and Cam Jenkins. Let's get into our headlines for this week.

Speaker 11:
Neutral Zone headlines.

Josh Watson:
Speaking of Jesse Zesseu, the National Championships for Para Athletics took place in B.C. Here are a couple of the highlights. Jesse Zesseu won the para-ambulatory discus throw for men with a throw of 50.47 meters. I'm a discus thrower myself. I don't know how you throw something that far, but congratulations, Jesse.
Also, Renee Foessel wins the F38 ambulatory discus with a throw of 34.64 meters. She's just coming off of competition at the World Championships in Paris, and that is a very, very good throw for her. And just for a little flavour, let's add in a couple of the able-bodied events.
Aaron Brown won the men's senior 100-meter race in a time of 10.08 seconds. And Andre De Grasse won the men's senior 200-meter race in a time... No, I don't have the time, but he won. So, that's good enough.

Brock Richardson:
After 1,294 games and one Stanley Cup in the NHL Canadian, Patrice Bergeron has decided to call it a career. He also had a decorated international career winning of five gold medals for Canada at various international events. Congratulations on a wonderful career. Best of luck in your future retirement. And I have to honestly say, that when names like Patrice Bergeron start retiring, that means that I am climbing up in age because I grew up watching Patrice Bergeron. And now, he's retiring. I'm not sure what that says about me, but congratulations, Patrice on a wonderful career.

Cameron Jenkins:
I think it means that both Brock and I are both old. The Women's World Cup of Soccer is rolling on. Canada played Australia in their most recent game. The final score was four to nothing, which makes their record one win, one draw, and one loss. Australia putting this all together, this means Canada is eliminated after the group stage in the 2023 Women's World Cup, which we'll be talking a little bit later in the show.

Brock Richardson:
Those are your headlines for this week. And just in a general sense, I want to talk about two different chat topics today. I want both of your general thoughts on the World Cup Canada, as Cameron so eloquently just told us, did not make it past the group stage. Would you say this was a success failure somewhere in between? Start with you, Josh, since it was not your headline.

Josh Watson:
Honestly, I am very disappointed in the way this particular World Cup has shaken out for Canada. I don't know if it's the change at head coach or just the players being a little bit older. But in my opinion, this was not the team we saw at the Olympics that won a gold medal.
I watched the first game against Nigeria, or at least most of it. And I don't think I've ever seen Christine Sinclair missed a penalty kick like she did in that game. It was completely obvious where she was going with the ball, and I don't think the Nigerian keeper had that difficult to save, to make on the play, and that could have given them a win in that game instead of a draw.
So, I see after today's game against Australia that Christine Sinclair did retire. I feel bad that that's the way she has to go out. But this was not, in my opinion, a good showing for Canada at all.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, it wasn't a good showing, especially after winning gold at the Olympics. I think it was a huge letdown. I watched the game today, and they were down two nothing and it could have very well been three nothing at the half, and they just seemed discombobulated.
The pressure that Australia put on the Canadians was unbelievable. And Christine Sinclair, as I understand, she doesn't see herself playing in another World Cup, I believe is what she said. So, if that was her last game in for Canada, thank you Christine Sinclair for representing your country so well over the years. And I believe if not in all of women's soccer, certainly in Canada, she has certainly scored the most points and goals for Canada. So, it's just so unfortunate that it had to go down like this because they did not play well today.

Brock Richardson:
It's almost like today Christine wanted to put a bit of a shining light on something that wasn't very good. And what I mean by shining light is the fact that if she, in fact, does not play another game, and it would seem that way, I think we can all in Canada say, "Well, she did wonderful things." And let's not also forget the fact that she's 40 years old.
I don't know many 40-year-old individuals in my world who can compete at a high, high, high level like that and be running for the better part of 90 minutes in a soccer game. To have that level of athleticism at that age is something that's pretty incredible. And so, on a bitter pill to swallow, as I try to speak English today, this is a shining light because Christine Sinclair needs to have all the flowers. She's had a great career.
And I agree with both of you, it's just a disappointing way for her and the team to go out. I did on a conversation I had this morning, it was brought up. Maybe, it's all the stuff that's going on in soccer Canada. And my answer to that this morning was, yes, that is part of it.
But I also think the other portion of this is, as professional athletes, you need to put that on the back burner and you need to go out onto the pitch in this case and put everything aside and play your game to the best of your ability. And I don't think I saw that today or at all throughout this tournament.

Cameron Jenkins:
And it was ridiculous that they wouldn't see the media before this game either like, you're trying to grow the game of women's soccer and Women Canadian Soccer and you don't even do any media availabilities because you're trying to psyche yourself up for this game. I just don't think that was very good on Team Canada's part to make that decision. Yeah, I just think it's pretty despicable.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, I think you need to make yourself available to media when media presents itself because there are some sports out there that don't get the same recognition and that would starve for media attention. So, when it's given, I think you need to at least accommodate it in some level.
I'm not suggesting that every athlete should be available to every media member, but dedicate somebody to go to the media because you deserve that, and so does the media, and the country of Canada and whatever the case may be. So, I agree with you Cameron. I don't like that either.
Something that I want to get your quick thoughts on both of you starting with Cameron, the MLB trade deadline is August 1st. In light of this, I thought I would ask you both, what is your favourite trade deadline day and why, Cameron?

Cameron Jenkins:
My favourite trade deadline, which might be also yours as well, it's from a Blue Jays perspective. And it's when that Alex Anthopoulos was here and he sold the farm and got to people like David Price and Troy Tulowitzki I believe was in that trade deadline. And there was other ones too where he just went for it, and it didn't matter if it was a rental or if it was a person that had a lot of years still on their contract left like, he just went for it. And that was fun because they also made the playoffs that year.
So, the only other trade deadline I can think of... And you know what? I don't want to even say that one because I don't even think it was a trade deadline. I think this one probably happened at the winter meetings when Fred McGriff was traded. And I believe it was for Robbie Alomar. And I believe Joe Carter was in there too or something along those lines. But like I said, I think that was at the winter meetings. But that's another big trade that happened that sticks out in my head.

Brock Richardson:
Also, Alex Anthopoulos didn't really care. He was emptying out the cupboards...

Cameron Jenkins:
No.

Brock Richardson:
... because he knew that he probably wasn't coming back with probably still in company.

Cameron Jenkins:
Exactly.

Brock Richardson:
Josh, do you have a favourite deadline, whether it's within Major League Baseball or just major sports in general?

Josh Watson:
Not one that really stands out. Unfortunately, my memory is just not strong enough, to be honest, to go back a long way. I mean, I do remember in 1992 and '93, and I'm sure there were deadline deals there that were enough to put us over the top because we did win those two World Series. It seems to me... Who was it? I think David Cohn came in on a deadline deal that one of those years...

Cameron Jenkins:
Yup, he did.

Josh Watson:
... and a couple of others. But I do agree with Cameron, that deadline where Tulowitzki and David Price and...

Brock Richardson:
David Price.

Josh Watson:
... those deals, those were certainly exciting. Anytime my team at the Blue Jays ends up deciding to do anything more than a minor move, I get excited. But overall, I look at where there a lot of deals. If there's a lot of deals flying around, then that's exciting to me. It doesn't necessarily have to be my own team, but there's been a few this year so far, and it'll be interesting to see if the Jays pull off anything else.
They've apparently acquired Jordan Hicks from the Cardinals, one of the best closers or at least relief pitchers in the game right now, so that'll be exciting. But to pick a particular deadline that really stood out, unfortunately, they all go together for me.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, those '92 and '93 deadlines, as you alluded to Josh, they were good too because I think... And I'm usually, not good at remembering these things, but I believe Mookie Wilson was around the trade deadline that we got him. And I think, even Candy Maldonado, there's a name for you that's a way back playback. So...

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, trade deadline days are definitely fun in whatever way that you consume them. And from a consumer perspective, I love the way that the NHL does their TV and you get 15 hours of coverage, I think. The MLB is one of those ones that trades can slip away from you because you don't... Unless you're on Twitter/X whatever the heck we're calling this now, they can slip away from you in that regard.
And so, for me, I love MLB. I think you see a lot of trades happen. But from a consumer perspective and television product, I love the NHL. I think they do a really good job in Canada of allocating time and effort. Sometimes, it's ridiculousness that you see on the three-letter TSN, but it's always fun. I hope that we see more acquisitions from the Blue Jays, and we'll see how things go. Go ahead, Cameron.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, I was just going to say that. With the NHL, I think they've set it up in such a way that it's great to have that one day. And I used to have a TV set up my computer, and I was going back and forth and figuring out all the trades. But I think the salary cap has wrecked it because now it just seems to be an older player that used to be good for a draft pick day, and that's because of the salary cap.
Whereas, in baseball, and yes, the NBA has a salary cap, but it's not a hard one like the NHL. So, I think those two leagues, especially the NBA, man, those deadline deals, those are exciting these days. So, I would've said originally the NHL before the salary cap, but I would probably go as far as trade deadlines go, NBA, Major League Baseball, and then hockey.

Brock Richardson:
Awesome. Giving us a top three there. If you like what you heard and you want to get ahold of us on social media, here's how you can do that.

Speaker 14:
And welcome back to the Neutral Zone, AMI broadcast booth.

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Play Ball.

Speaker 14:
And we are set to get this ballgame underway. The first pitch brought to you by Brock Richardson's Twitter account @NeutralZoneBR. First pitch strike, and hey gang, why not strike up a Twitter chat with Claire Buchanan from the Neutral Zone. Find her at Neutral Zone CB. And there's a swing and a chopper out to second base right at Claire. She picks up the ball, throws it over the first base...

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Out.

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... for a routine out. And fans, there is nothing routine about connecting with Cam and Josh from the Neutral Zone, @NeutralZoneCamJ and @JWatson200. Now, that's a winning combination. And this Oregon interlude is brought to you by AMI-audio on Twitter. Get in touch with the Neutral Zone, type in @AMIAudio.

Brock Richardson:
We released another Canadian Paralympic Committee Summit interview that I did back in March. Today, we speak with Jesse Zesseu from Toronto, Ontario. He is a long jump athlete and please enjoy the interview. Okay, so I understand you were not born in Canada. What has Canada done for you in the world of Parasport?

Jesse Zesseu:
It's given me the opportunity to compete at a high level and have the resources to compete at that high level. I think that if in Cameroon it's a little less developed. So, especially sport in Cameroon, let alone parasport. So, I think Canada afforded me that ability to further achieve my goals athletically.

Brock Richardson:
Now, you compete in long jump, and I have had visions all day of how does one learn that they're good at long jump or like long jump. Does this mean that you're jumping from the kitchen to the dining room and going, "Mom, look how far I jumped? How does one figure this out?

Jesse Zesseu:
So, in elementary school, I was always into either basketball or just running in general. But then, in grade six I remember that I went to... I came second in the cities for city like Toronto City Championships for standing long jump in the able-bodied category. So, I guess that's how I figured out I was pretty good at long jump. Yeah, I always could just jump far horizontally and vertically, yeah.

Brock Richardson:
And is that something you can... It's something you can practice basically anywhere to a point? You can literally, just jump on your lawn, is that how you learn and grew in the early stages of this? It's just doing it on your own time before you competed at a high level?

Jesse Zesseu:
I think just throughout, just doing also just different sports that involved a lot of jumping helped a lot. I was always a pretty active kid. I'd go out in the backyard and just do a bunch of random stuff, do a bunch of flips and tricks and whatever in the backyard. So, it was just... I think that inadvertently helped me pseudo-train for long jump, yeah.

Brock Richardson:
You have set Canadian records, how hard is that to do to set a record?

Jesse Zesseu:
I mean, it's all relative, I think. It could be difficult for someone. It could be easy for some other people. I mean, I think the years of working out and improving my explosiveness, improving my abilities, be getting stronger, helped out a lot. And made it easier in the moment than it would've been otherwise.

Brock Richardson:
Can you talk to me a little bit about the just training regimen that goes into competing at a high level?

Jesse Zesseu:
Especially for my events, all my events that I do are pretty based on power, speed and just strength. So, essentially, in the weight room for example, we just do a lot of lifting heavy or lifting heavy things really fast, whether that be mostly leg stuff. And also, outdoors just having good quality. Less about quantity than more about quality because all my events are pretty technical.
Long jump is actually, it's pretty technical event. It doesn't sound like it, but actually is. And so, is discus. So, just honing in on your technique on the field, and then getting stronger, getting more explosive.

Brock Richardson:
Do you have a favourite event that you do? And on the contrary, is there one that you're just like, "Oh, I don't like this?

Jesse Zesseu:
In terms of favourite event, I like discus and long jump pretty equally. I think it's also because like, those are my best ones. In terms of unfavourable events, right now, that probably would be shot put because I know one of the national team coaches wants me to do shot put, and I don't know. I'm already 80 pounds lighter than all the discus throws in my category in the world. And so, I can just use my speed and technique. But shot put is much more about like force and just mass, and it's a little harder for me than some of those guys. So, that's probably a shot put, yeah.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, that's fair. I understand. For you, when you look at the Paralympics, obviously that's the goal, to continue to progress and do that. For you, what's the long-term goal in parasports?

Jesse Zesseu:
The long-term goal is to be the best multi-event athlete I can possibly be. And hopefully, be the best multi-event athlete in my category or in parasport in general. Especially because there's not many... There's a lot of athletes that have won many medals in just running or just throwing or in just jumping, but I want to win a medal in all three at some point in my life. So, that'd be the overall goal, and that's what I'm hoping we can do all the way, especially in LA 2028 when I'll be further along in my career.

Brock Richardson:
There's always something amusing that takes place in someone's career that you know can think back to and say, "Yeah, when this happened, this was funny and I enjoyed it." For you, what would you say the funny side of your career has been?

Jesse Zesseu:
In terms of the funny side, I mean, I guess it's not funny but I take it as funny because I don't know, I just laughed when it happened. So, the day before I went on the plane to go get classified in Arizona for the first-ever competition as a para-athlete, I hyperextended my knee. And so, I couldn't run, walk properly for three months afterwards.
So, that was the day before I got on the plane. And so, that was just like, "Come on. Are you serious right now?" So, it was more just like, I laughed to laugh it off because I couldn't get too angry at myself. And luckily, that helped me focus in on discus. And that's where I got the marks to get on the national team.

Brock Richardson:
Training and competing is not always easy. What's the most challenging thing for you? Training and competing in your career?

Jesse Zesseu:
It's definitely the bad days where it feels as though you just forgot how to do the event where... Or you have a technical day where you're just trying to focus on one thing, you just cannot do it. You spend an hour and a half, two hours trying to do this one thing in your technique and you can't do it. It's really very, very, very frustrating. But it's just learning how to just not get too high on emotions and stay even keel. So, the next day you can go at it again with a very short-term memory and just go at it with a fresh slate.

Brock Richardson:
What does the Canadian Paralympic Committee and the Paralympic Movement mean to you as a whole?

Jesse Zesseu:
It means a lot. It's given me the opportunity to travel the world, visit other countries that I've never been able to do before. Given me the opportunity to compete at a high level, and compete safely at a high level, and just supported me all the way through it. So, yeah, it's been really, really special.

Brock Richardson:
And obviously, there's always room for growth. Where do you see the Canadian Paralympic Committee needing to grow themselves and the movement?

Jesse Zesseu:
I think, it's just more advocacy and more awareness for the Paralympic Movement. The fact that I was 21 years old when I found out I would be eligible for the Paralympics. I think that should have happened sooner, and it can happen sooner. There's probably a bunch of other people out there that are eligible, and probably will be very competitive within parasport that I just don't know that it's possible.

Brock Richardson:
It's so hard to balance your personal life and your career because funding doesn't always come in the ways that we hope it does. How do you find it successful to balance your personal life and your career?

Jesse Zesseu:
In terms of personal life and funding and stuff, it is hard, especially as I just finished being a student, so it is hard that way. But on the flip side of being a student, I live pretty cheaply. I live in a student house at that point, so it's a little cheaper rent and everything. In terms of personal life, it's just a little less social time, but I have no FOMO or fear of missing out. I know what my goals are, and I still have time for my friends and my family. But they also and I also know what the objective is, and what I'm doing. So...

Brock Richardson:
Can you tell us more a little bit about your studies?

Jesse Zesseu:
Oh, so I took political science and marketing at University of Guelph.

Brock Richardson:
And what's the hope there?

Jesse Zesseu:
So, I have a job lined up for next year, hopefully, to a... It's called... It's an advertising agency, and working digital marketing as an account executive there. So, I don't know... And especially with that, it would be part-time and remote. So, that works perfectly with my schedule as an athlete where I'm not even in Canada for three or four months out of the year.

Brock Richardson:
When we pack, we obviously pack the things we need, but there's always that thing that's the comfort thing, the thing that makes us feel grounded. For you, what's the thing that you say, "I must have this in my bag in order for me to feel a piece of home or just a level of comfort?"

Jesse Zesseu:
I don't really have any souvenirs. It's more practical stuff, I would say. I can't travel without... If I forget my headphones, I don't know what I'm going to do at that point because I absolutely need my headphones either on the plane or if I'm sharing a room with someone in the dorm that I'm in. I think it's more so that. I don't have really any souvenirs or anything that I travel with or anything.

Brock Richardson:
Athletes are creatures of habit. Do you believe that's important as an athlete? And if so, why?

Jesse Zesseu:
Yes, I believe not even... I would characterize it as just repetition. The point of most of any sport, it's about repetition. Training is boring sometimes, and is hard. And it's just about repetition, repetition until you get it right. And so, forming those good habits, not only on the field of play and also when you're practicing, but also it delves into nutrition as well too.
Just being consistent, finding what you like in terms of food that fuels you. For example, I've eaten the same version of a breakfast every day when I'm at home for the last six, seven years of my life. Just being really consistent with that, and yeah.

Brock Richardson:
Would you...

Jesse Zesseu:
It's just a combination of oatmeal, fruit, and Proxeed powder in any form. I either make waffles, a smoothie, or... Yeah.

Brock Richardson:
There's going to be people that are listening to this that aren't involved in parasport or haven't begun their journey of being involved in parasport. Why should somebody take that first proverbial step and get involved?

Jesse Zesseu:
Because there's no use in just putting it off. If you know that you're eligible, you know you have a chance to compete, just do it. What's the fear and stop... Oh, not what's the fear, but there's no need to put it off because it's not always going to be there. Your opportunity and your body while you're young or while you're old, I don't know... If you want to compete as an older person isn't always going to be there. So, just take it.

Brock Richardson:
Thank you so much for doing this interview. We greatly appreciate it.

Jesse Zesseu:
Thank you.

Brock Richardson:
That was long jump athlete, Jesse Zesseu, who is from Toronto, Ontario. And again, I spoke with him in March at the Canadian Paralympic Committee Summit. If you like what you heard in the interview, please give us a call at our voicemail which can be found right here.

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If you want to leave a message for the Neutral Zone, call now 1-866-509-4545. And don't forget to give us permission to use your message on the air. Let's get ready to leave a voicemail.

Brock Richardson:
Sometimes, I feel that I'm a glutton for punishment. And I'll tell you why, because I put on the remaining of the docket Major League Baseball, which is because the trade deadline is approaching as we mentioned off the top of the show. But I know that this opens up one of my co-hosts to talk about Yusei Kikuchi during our conversation. And there's 26 minutes left in the show. So, I am sure that at some point in the next 20, 25 and a half minutes, I guess if I keep talking, then I can just kill more and more time that we don't have to talk about it.

Cameron Jenkins:
Oh, we're in edgewise somewhere.

Brock Richardson:
I just know that we're going to be talking about it somewhere down the line. And you know what? Cameron, I'll say this for you, you deservedly so, maybe we do need to talk about Yusei Kikuchi, as you tend to throw stats at me in Twitter and X or whatever. Maybe, you could throw them out on the programs and you've done the rest of the wow.
So, I leave this to you as we delve through this next 26 minutes or so. But let's start here before we start talking about the trade deadline specifically and the Blue Jays. Over the last 50 games, they have had the best record in the American League and something like having 30 wins. When I looked at the stat and 20 losses. They have had one of the best records all told in every other division when they played each division except for the American League East, where they've only won something like eight games all together.
So, before we delve into the trade line itself, what would you say about the Toronto Blue Jays and where they are right now as we head into the last leg of the season? Cameron, start with you.

Cameron Jenkins:
Oh, where to start? I know that the Jays, they have been good over the past while, and one of the best records in baseball since I forget what the date is. But it doesn't feel like it. With that bullpen, it really needs to shore up. I think Schneider has been using the bullpen way too much, and he needs to be able to trust his starters a bit more. And yeah, I'm going to bring up Kikuchi because he always seems to get Kikuchi out of the game.

Brock Richardson:
Darn, I didn't kill enough time. Proceed.

Cameron Jenkins:
But seriously, like Kikuchi, he always pulls him by the fourth or fifth inning. And Kikuchi is doing well during those innings, and I don't know, especially I think it was the last, I think Kikuchi head. I don't understand why Schneider would pull him out. And obviously, it has to do with analytics. And what Kikuchi usually does after four or five innings or probably after two or three times through the lineup.
But if he's pitching that well, give him a bit of leeway because you know you have to rest some of your bullpen. They've been overused way too much. And thank God that we ended up getting the relief pitcher from St. Louis, but I think that was more so because Jordan Romano was I think with lower back problems or stiffness.
So, when Romano going to be coming back and is this St. Louis pitcher going to end up being the closer from now to the end of the season? I really hope that it doesn't affect Romano too much. But yeah, I think Kikuchi has pitched really well. You got the other pitchers besides Manoah, but you have him back up. His first start was really good. Next start didn't go so well. And I don't know what he did in his third starter if he's had a third start.

Brock Richardson:
It was comme ci comme ça, it was so, so...

Cameron Jenkins:
It was comme ci comme ça, yeah. So, are you going to end up putting Manoah in the bullpen? It seems like Manoah's getting more innings than Kikuchi is like, when he's not doing as well. I just don't get it.

Josh Watson:
I can understand your point about that, and there are times where I agree with you that the rope needs to be extended, the leash needs to be longer. But I think what it comes down to with Kikuchi is that, once he gets into that third or fourth time through that lineup, things just go south and they go south in a hurry with him, unfortunately.
I do agree with you, he's been 100% better than he was last year, but I still have my doubts. Unfortunately, I have fewer doubts with him than I do with Alek Manoa. I don't think they should have brought him back up as soon as they did. I think they should have brought Hyun Jin Ryu up before Manoah, quite frankly, because you send him down, he gets shelled in the Florida Complex League. He comes up, he makes a start at AA and does okay, and you magically decide, "Okay, he's fixed."

Cameron Jenkins:
It's magic, Josh.

Josh Watson:
No, that's not how that works. I need a track record. I need a track record of consistent application of what he's been shown in the minor leagues before I give him the cookie of, "You're now a major league starter again." As far as I'm concerned, if you get demoted, you have to earn your way back. I'm not convinced he did.
Having said that, it was pretty obvious to me that the likes of Bassitt and Berrios and Gausman obviously went to management and said, "Do something, we're not staying on a four-man rotation here." So, I guess they didn't have a choice. They apparently don't have anyone at AAA that they feel comfortable bringing up. They apparently don't have anyone at AA that they feel comfortable bringing up.
So, that's the part that scares me the most is that bullpen and that starting rotation because if three of four of them hit the skids at the same time, we're in trouble. But having said that, we do have Ryu coming up, he's going to make a start. I believe it's tomorrow against Baltimore, so that will be interesting. He's pitched very well in the minor leagues, so I have no problem with him coming and joining the rotation.
I don't even mind if you skip Manoah once or twice, until he shows you that he can be solid because that second start after he came back was scary, and that's against a very good team. If you can't pitch against the very good teams, you don't belong to. Personally, I don't think we're going to see any, sorry, Cameron, I know you want to get in here. I don't see us making any huge moves at the deadline, other than Jordan Hicks because I think Chad Green will be our pickup, assuming that he's well enough to step in and be a leverage reliever. And I think that's where your rest for your bullpen is going to come.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah, I think that they definitely need that bullpen picture that they got. They're looking for a right-handed bat as well. I think they're going to do something by tomorrow in regards to that. It's...

Josh Watson:
One year.

Cameron Jenkins:
I guess, it's just very frustrating that the pitching is where it is. And they're certainly not babying Ryu when he comes back because they're putting him right into the fire to pitch against Baltimore, was the point I was going to make. So, it's going to be really interesting to see what Ryu is like, and after coming back from Tommy John surgery and throwing him right into the fire.
I'm really interested to see how he's going to pitch, and how he's going to pitch the rest of the way because I'm pretty confident in saying that the Jays are going to make the playoffs. So, going to be interesting to see how they put all the pitchers together, and who they're going to have as their starters, and who they're going to throw in the bullpen because especially if it's a wild card, I think that's the best of three depending on which game. If it's just a one game playoff, it could be just one game. But I don't...

Brock Richardson:
No, it's best of three now.

Cameron Jenkins:
It's the best of three? Okay.

Brock Richardson:
It's best of three, yeah.

Cameron Jenkins:
So, a lot of the pitchers I think are going to be thrown in the bullpen anyway as long will leavers because who you're going to have your three? Gausman? Who are the other two in your opinions that would end up starting a series besides Gausman?

Josh Watson:
For me, it's easy. It's Gausman, Berrios and it's Bassitt.

Cameron Jenkins:
Bassitt, yeah.

Josh Watson:
Those are my guys. Those have been the three guys that have carried this team the whole way. Now, if any one of those three gets hurt, then you've got an issue.

Cameron Jenkins:
Yeah.

Josh Watson:
Then, do you put in Manoah? Do you put in Kikuchi? Or do you put in Ryu, who has only had a few starts.

Cameron Jenkins:
Right now, I'd put Kikuchi.

Brock Richardson:
And you better...

Cameron Jenkins:
I'd put Kikuchi in, obviously.

Brock Richardson:
I was going to say that you better put in Kikuchi, and I can't believe that's coming out of my mouth right now. But you better put in Kikuchi because that individual has earned the right to be that fourth guy in that need, if there's a need for it. The biggest mistake... I don't know if I've said this publicly, I haven't been here in a long time, so I...

Josh Watson:
No, you haven't.

Brock Richardson:
I don't remember what I said on the air. But the biggest mistake that I believe that the Toronto Blue Jays made was giving Alek Manoah this opening day start. Why they gave it to him? I will forever not understand. And I know it's only one game, I understand that. But I've been an athlete in many different levels, and those kinds of pressure moments really play on your psyche. And it's a real problem. And he ran into a situation where he hit somebody in the face in one of the games against...

Josh Watson:
Against LA?

Brock Richardson:
Against the LA. That's going to play against your psyche because I'm sorry. If you're human, you're going to feel that. The sound, I will never forget that sound that I heard. It was like, "Aww, that's not good." And the individual for the LA Angels is not going to be coming back this season obviously. But it's just... There's been so many things stacked up against, use Alek Manoah this year that it's pretty unbelievable when you think about it.
And for me, the first thing I looked at and I said, "Was the action of bringing him down to the minors, was it just the action versus what he actually accomplished down in the minors?" Because to me, you brought him up way, way, way too quickly in this situation.
And he hasn't proven to me other than the first start, which I want to remind the viewers out there, the first start that he played was against the Detroit Tigers. Between myself, Cameron, and Josh, I'm pretty sure we could have done okay against the Detroit Tigers this year. And we're not Major League players. But, and I don't mean to disrespect Alek here either. But it's just the reality of the situation.
You have to look against his opponent. And yes, you can only play who you're in front of. That's all well and good. That's fine. I'm okay with that. For me, guys, the thing that I want to bring up in all this, and I was at the game Sunday afternoon, and I watched George Springer come up four times, and he flew out four times.
And yeah, we moved him from the top of the lineup to the fifth hole and we put Whit Merrifield at the top. Great. Been a real good difference. But at some point, we need to have the conversation of, what are we doing with George Springer? Yes, he was on the paternal leave list. And since he's been back, he's been godawful. And then, whatever.
But everyone looks at George Springer and says, "Oh, you paid him so much money. He's your guy. We got to keep running him out there." No, you don't because if you sent Alek Manoah down for the same reasons of what I believe are mental struggles, then you want to do that with George Springer. Not send him down necessarily, but put him on the IL, make up some injury.
And I know I shouldn't be saying this, make up some injury that says he's going to be on the injured list for 15 days because he's not productive. I mean, I was sitting in the audience and the person I went with was literally genuinely like, "We need a pinch hitter." I'd rather him in the 10th inning strike out rather than hitting into a double play, which he ended up striking out in this instance because he's too much of a liability in the sense of in the end of a game. You don't know whether he's going to hit into a double-play strikeout. He's just not there.
And so, for me, do something more with George Springer, not versus Alek Manoah. You did it to Alek Manoah, so do it to George Springer. Your thoughts on this, both of you, Josh, start with you.

Josh Watson:
I was just about to say, I think they read your mind, Brock, because I read something about 45 minutes ago just before we came on air, where he is actually being sat tonight. Springer will not be in the lineup.

Brock Richardson:
Good.

Josh Watson:
So, I think you can't necessarily send him down or I'm sure there are Major League Baseball rules against falsifying injuries. But I agree with you that you do need to sit him down and say, "We've got Daulton Varsho. We've got Kevin Kiermaier. We've got...

Brock Richardson:
Cavan Biggio.

Josh Watson:
Cavan Biggio. We've got enough outfielders that you can take a couple of days off, go down in the cage, figure out your swing, and then come back. But for now, until you earn your place, that's what's going to happen to you. There needs to be more of a meritocracy on this team. You need to earn your spot in that lineup.
Whit Merrifield, he's earned his spot in the lineup, whether he's in the outfield, whether he's at second base, wherever he is, he deserves to be there. He is proving that he was a good pickup. Even Daulton Varsho, he brings things to the game that you need. So, he's earned his spot. Kevin Kiermaier does things, whether it's in the field or at bat that earn him a place.
Some of these other guys, especially some of the bigger-name guys, I question that sometimes. And I think we've seen it in the past, where guys will get a day off here and there because they're just not pulling their weight. And I really think that needs to happen more.

Cameron Jenkins:
As far as this discussion goes, if anyone's going to get sent down before anybody, it should be Varsho because he's not hitting well at all either. And yes, he has defensive capabilities, which is helping to save some runs, but when you think of the other player, he also is in right field, not in center field anymore, and he's doing really good defensively as well.
So, there's a heck of a lot of other players I would send down if you're going to send down somebody, rather than that individual that we're speaking of, George Springer. And they were commenting on the game that yesterday that he was hitting the ball well, that it just wasn't falling, but he was getting good contact on it and hitting the ball well, but it just wasn't dropping.
So, I think that's everybody goes through slumps through the entire year. I believe with, not Biggio, but Chapman. I think they were complaining about him for a while. They were complaining about Vladi Jr. He's not hitting a lot of home runs.

Brock Richardson:
Still are complaining about Vladi Jr.

Cameron Jenkins:
They were complaining about him because he wasn't getting any hits. I think he went through 13 games of not getting a hit or something like that. I forget the actual stats, but he's just going through a bad time. He started to hit the ball well. And if they do pull him for non-injury related reasons, especially when he hit the ball well, he just didn't get any hits. I think it's the wrong thing to do personally.

Brock Richardson:
This is where I disagree with you. Moving George Springer from the first position to the fifth position does nothing for me. Scratches, no itch, does nothing. Because you know what? He leads off a game once a game, then the lineup just becomes the lineup. Moving him from first to fifth does nothing. Maybe, there's some analytics of like, if you hit first, you hit more times than everybody else. That's a no-brainer. But I just... Yesterday, watching the game, I look at George Springer and I say, "Buddy, you look lost." Even balls and strikes...

Cameron Jenkins:
But he was hitting the ball hard yesterday.

Brock Richardson:
It doesn't matter. Did it fall? No, it didn't fall. So...

Cameron Jenkins:
No, but there's a huge difference between pop-ups or strikeouts compared to balls being hit hard, and just not dropping or getting hit right at the outfielder or whatever the case is compared to popouts or strikeouts or like, that is lost. But hitting the ball hard... But it just happens to go right to the outfielder that's not lost.

Brock Richardson:
You know what I remember out of yesterday's game? I remember the fact that he went over four. I don't sit here and think, well, yeah, he flew out to each of the left fielder, center fielder, right fielder. I mean, I remember that because the person I went with joked about that, that he's hit to every fielder one hit to twice in the outfield.
But I don't remember that. What I remember is, you didn't get on base. What I remember is, in the 10th inning, people were literally like, we'd rather just make the out versus let him hit because he is a liability in making a double play. Now, am I suggesting that we trade him? Absolutely, not.

Cameron Jenkins:
No.

Brock Richardson:
No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that at all. I just think...

Josh Watson:
Of course, not.

Brock Richardson:
He needs to take a seat and it needs to be for more than one game, in my opinion. He needs to take a seat, and he needs to sit there and work on his swing mentally, sitting on the bench.

Cameron Jenkins:
Brock, you're not going to remember, Brock, when he hits a home run to win a wild card series. You're not going to remember this conversation of him getting out four times in the row and hitting the ball hard. You're going to be like, "Oh, yeah, George Springer is the best. He had a home run, and it was game winning." And you're not going to remember this.

Brock Richardson:
No, trust me, I'll remembered it because I have a coworker like you that doesn't let me forget anything, anything at all of what I said.

Cameron Jenkins:
It's all you too.

Brock Richardson:
So, you will pull it up.

Cameron Jenkins:
Shut up. That's true.

Brock Richardson:
And you will tell Mark or whoever is our technical producer on that given day, we need to run this because I will. And so, yeah, you will not let me forget this.

Cameron Jenkins:
Fair enough.

Brock Richardson:
I owe that this happened. But no, I just think that that's the way it is. He needs to sit for a while, Josh.

Josh Watson:
It goes back to a bigger problem I think I see with the Blue Jays hitters, and we see it go against us time and time again. It's not easy to do. I'm not going to claim that. But situational hitting, okay, they're shading you to say right field, everybody's swung over to the right because they think you're going to pull the baseball, have some awareness and dump a single into left field.
There are ways that you can hit the ball timing-wise and other things that allow you to play based on what the defence is giving you. I'm going to age myself here, but Tony Gwynn and Ozzie Smith were wizards at doing that. They would look at what the defence was giving them and go, "Oh, there's a hole over there. I'm going to hit it there." And they would, that art of the game is lost. And I don't know why.
It's like, all we can do now is hit the ball hard and, "Oh, well, it went to all three outfielders. Well, big deal." No, it is a big deal because it's keeping you from winning games. And I have watched players for other teams come into Rogers Centre or play against the Blue Jays at their home park, and they do it. So, why can't we? What is going on?

Brock Richardson:
And one of the real reasons in my opinion, and this is across Major League baseball. This isn't just Toronto Blue Jays. One of the real reasons they got rid of the shift was because somebody would play somebody extremely to the right towards first base. And you would see time and time again...

Josh Watson:
Ridiculous.

Brock Richardson:
... that person...

Josh Watson:
I'll find out.

Brock Richardson:
... just hit it right into the shift. And the commentator, whoever it would be, would say the words, "Hit it right into the shift. Hit it right into the shift." And for me, and this is a little bit facetious. Welcome back, I'm being totally facetious this week on the program. But I would always say, bunt and run a mile like bunt through that open side and run for days because there's nobody on the left side of the infield when everyone's shaded up towards first base because they all think you're going to hit there.
So, bunt and run for days because that's going to change the shift. Now, Major League Baseball came in and said, "No, no, no, we're going to change the shift," because they couldn't stomach watching player time and time again, over and over again hitting into the shift. It's the most frustrating thing in the world to watch.
And for me, I look at this and I say, "You guys are professionals. Figure out how to counteract what a team is, how they're defending you." Now, we don't have a shift at all because people in Major League Baseball can't beat it. Come on, now. Of course, we could beat it. Just go the other way. And I know I'm making it sound easier than it probably is. I get it. But it is so frustrating sometimes. It really is. So, yeah.

Cameron Jenkins:
And when you try to bunt, that's gone the way of the Dodo Bird. Nobody knows how to bunt properly anymore, at least it seems that way because you're right, Brock, if the shift is on and if they bunt to the left side because there's like nobody there on the left side, they're like in Canada rather than in the United States, then yeah, they should be able to do that to be able to say, "Okay, I can get a hit this way."
But with not doing the shift anymore, I think that's a good thing because Major League Baseball, they want more offence. So, if they found through the statistics through doing the shift that more people were getting out, hopefully, they're able to get more offence with not doing the shift anymore.

Brock Richardson:
It's really, literally removed the shift, so that we didn't have to stomach listening to guy hitting into the shift yet again, just, yeah. I didn't think it would come as soon as it did, but it did, and it's made for better baseball. What made for better baseball? When I watched the Game Live the other day was watching, Shohei Ohtani. And yes, I was cheering for the Toronto Blue Jay, I was. I promised.
But I was really hoping to see something special from Shohei Ohtani, which I did not. And one of the big stories that's come out since we've last been on the program is that Shohei Ohtani will not be traded by the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim because they want to keep him.
My argument to this is, you got to get something for this player who is once in a hundred years, you're going to see this, and you're going to see him hit and pitch it in the same game. To me, it would be an absolute crime if the Los Angeles Angels did not make the playoffs, and he walks away in free agency and says, "Bye, bye to the Angels," and they get nothing.
Some people would tell me, "Well, they want to build around him. They want to acquire people. They want to do this." For me, as a fan, I would rather get something than nothing for a guy like him who can do two things in the same game. And yes, as Dan Shulman and Buck Martinez have said in different broadcasts this week, you may have to pay him as a two-way player of, one as a pitcher and one as a hitter, because that's how it might roll. Do you guys feel it would be a crime if they let him walk at free agency, and yet didn't make the playoffs, Cameron?

Cameron Jenkins:
Oh, it'd be an absolute crime. I would really hope that they know that they can resign him and that's why they're not trading him. Because otherwise, I think it's suicide because of being able to get the assets back that you would for him to try to retool your offence and pitching potentially. I think it's asinine if they ended up not trading him without knowing whether or not he's going to sign back with Los Angeles.

Brock Richardson:
Josh, thoughts.

Josh Watson:
The angels are going to Angel. I don't understand this move at all. It makes no sense unless they have had conversations with him privately that say, "Yes, I will stay if you do X, Y, and Z." That's the only way I can see that this makes any sense. Otherwise, it is career-ending for the general manager in my opinion, because you're going to watch him try to take you to the playoffs, probably come up just a bit short because you've had Mike throw it away. And yeah, I don't know what you're going to have if you let him walk.

Brock Richardson:
That is the end of our show for this week. I'd like to thank Cam Jenkins, Josh Watson. I'd also like to thank our technical producer, Mark Aflalo. Ryan Delehanty is the podcast coordinator. Tune in next week because you just never know what happens when you enter the Neutral Zone. Be safe. Be well.