Canada's Game is Hockey - August 15, 2023

Speaker 1:
Are you ready? Let's go. From AMI central. Now, circling in The Neutral Zone.

Speaker 2:
Here's the pitch on the way.

Speaker 3:
36 yards for the win.

Speaker 1:
This...

Speaker 4:
Here comes the big chance. The shot...

Speaker 1:
... is...

Speaker 2:
Is this the tiger? The Neutral Zone.

Speaker 5:
Ohh....

Speaker 6:
Home Run.

Speaker 2:
Good.

Speaker 7:
This is as good as it gets.

Speaker 1:
Now, here's your host, two time Paralympian, Brock Richardson.

Brock Richardson:
What's going on? It's time for another edition of The Neutral Zone. I am indeed your host, Brock Richardson.
Coming up on today's program, we released another Canadian Paralympic Summit interview that was in this past March. This time, we speak with retired para ice hockey player, Greg Westlake, and he is also the host of Level Playing Field on AMI TV. That's Greg Westlake. And we're also going to discuss, at CBC, they did a study not that long ago, about 400 youth in Canada get assaulted by their coaches, both physically and mentally.
The panel examines this. Who's on the panel with me, you ask? That would be Josh Watson and Claire Buchanan. Let's get into our headlines for this week.

Speaker 1:
Neutral Zone Headlines. Headlines. Headlines.

Claire Buchanan:
If you are in the Mississauga area and have ever wanted to try blind hockey, here's some information that you should have. There's a lot of information coming your way. On Saturday, August 19th, the 2023 Canadian Blind Hockey Summer Development Camp showcases some games. The games will be at the Iceland Arena at 705 Matheson Boulevard East in Mississauga.
Games are free and open to the public. 2:45 PM to 4:15 will be the Development Showcase Game, and 4:15 to 6:15 PM will be the High Performance Showcase Game. The 2023 Canadian Blind Hockey Summer Development Camp is taking place in Mississauga, Ontario, will feature over 50 blind hockey players who will focus on developing their skills to continue playing this great sport at such a high level.

Brock Richardson:
The National Bank Open Tennis Tournament has concluded for another year. We congratulate US women's athlete, Jessica Pegula, for winning this event on the women's side. And for the men, we congratulate Jannik Sinner for winning the event on his side.
I have to be honest and tell you that tennis is an unbelievable game to watch. The stamina that it requires for these athletes to do what they have to do for three plus hours, sometimes, is incredible, so congratulations to both of those athletes who won, and also, congratulations to everyone who competed. The next major event is the US Open, which begins on August the 28th, 2023.

Josh Watson :
The Arizona Coyotes are attempting to purchase approximately 41 acres of land in Mesa, Arizona to construct a new arena on.
In a special election recently, voters in the area of Tempe, Arizona, rejected an arena proposal, which would've seen the coyotes build their new arena on 48 acres of land.
In the meantime, the team will continue to play their home games out of the University of Arizona's Mullett Arena for the next two seasons with an option for 2025-2026. Mullett Arena is, by far, the smallest home venue in the NHL.

Brock Richardson:
Most ridiculous-looking NHL arena there could be, but it's so Phoenix Coyotes to be at a place like this. And you know what, I'm not even going to be mad about it, because desperate times called for desperate measures. But my goodness, did it ever look ridiculous when they were making makeshift dressing rooms? Oh... Just do something with Phoenix that doesn't mean they're in Phoenix. Like put them in Quebec City, Gary Bettman. Something. Anything.

Josh Watson :
But that would mean they gave up, Brock, come on.

Brock Richardson:
Yes.

Claire Buchanan:
They're at least going in the right direction now. There's hope. There's...

Josh Watson :
There's something.

Brock Richardson:
You gave up when...

Josh Watson :
There's something.

Brock Richardson:
... you put this thing at a university campus. Just saying. Just saying.

Josh Watson :
Oh, well...

Brock Richardson:
Those are your headlines, and that's the end of my first rant of the day. There's another one coming in a minute, so stay tuned for that.
Listen, our chat topic is always things that I have fun with because I had... Any given week, I don't know what we're going to chat about. But this one was pretty easy for me in that Toronto Blue Jays player, Jose Bautista, is the newest member on the level of excellence, and we saw that this week on Saturday. He signed a one-day contract to retire as a Toronto Blue Jay.
Let me give my thoughts on this. First, I thought that the ceremony was great. I loved it. And I know that I'm kind of on an island for most of the people that I've spoken to, because they don't care, but I care that his speech was done prerecorded on the jumbotron, whilst he was standing there watching it. It just... Thought it was weird. I thought it could have been concluded a little bit differently. What did you guys think about the ceremony? Start with you on this one, Josh.

Josh Watson :
I really enjoyed it. I thought it was very tastefully done. I understand your point about the recording, but as I understand it, Jose was very emotional about the whole experience. And being there with his wife and his three daughters, I just think that he was concerned about how it would come across, and that perhaps, he wouldn't remember everything that he wanted to say.
So, in that kind of a highly-charged moment, which, let's be honest, Jose is not unfamiliar with highly-charged moments, and I'm sure we'll get to that, but I just think he wanted to make sure that everyone he wanted to thank was properly thanked, and I think he just felt that the video was the way to do it.
I thought the rest of the ceremony was really well done. I was surprised by the number of former Blue Jays that came back to be there for his enshrinement, and I thought it was really, really well done overall.

Claire Buchanan:
I agree with you. I liked the video that he shared. Yeah, he was open and honest about him and his emotions, and he didn't want to, like you said, Josh, miss anybody. So, I think that you're going to see that a lot more moving on with players and having kind of video thank yous back to the fans as well.
Watching these baseball specifically moments, everyone gets a new chair. It doesn't matter what team is retiring and a guy's number, they all get some sort of unique-looking chair, and I think that it's those things with sports that are cool to see and it's really cool that... You just get kind of showered with love and stuff and that's what the day is all about. It's wild to see some of the gifts they get right there on the field, but I like this kind of undertone of, I guess, ritual that, you get a chair when you retire. So, I really liked the ceremony.

Brock Richardson:
I made the remark with the people that I was with, two of which didn't really care about the ceremony, to be honest. Not sports fans, didn't really care at all. And one of the things I said to the room, which made them bust out in laughter, was the only plaque that I'm getting about my career might be on the inside of an accessible bathroom, you know, oh, yeah, he played bocce for this many years. That's about as far as it's going to go. There's no going to be level of excellence, nothing. It's just going to be, yeah, yeah, you played.
But the room, too, like the non-sports fans were like, wait, so that's all that happened? They opened a curtain with his name on it and we're done? And I said, "Well, yes. Because it was all about the pomp and circumstance". And my favourite one recently, the retirement, which wasn't a Toronto Blue Jay, was Mariano Rivera, who had a bat or a chair made up of bats that was... He broke over his career.
And again, Claire, I agree with you. I think that these are sort of unique, different, but they still kind of make sense in their grand scheme of baseball itself. And so, I liked it, I loved the mural. I think the mural was cool. That's something that I really enjoyed. I didn't mind what he said in the video. I just thought that the video itself could have been done differently.
But I hear everyone's point about the emotions and all that. I just want to be clear, it's not what he said in the video that I had a problem. It is the fact that it was a video that is kind of like, mm, it could have been done differently. But I mean, also, does a 42-year-old guy want to sit there and sob through his speech? Probably not. And so, I think you guys may have sort of changed my way of thinking on all this.
I just want to quickly discuss the Toronto Blue Jays here, because we're not going to have time to get to them today. Listen, they lost two out of three against the Chicago Cubs. They have a brutal schedule coming up. Philadelphia Phillies, Tampa Bay Rays in Tampa, which seems like Death Valley, and then, the Baltimore Orioles, Boston Red Sox.
I feel like I'm missing someone of importance in that list, but there's a bunch of important games coming along here. Did we miss an opportunity here or some opportunities, Claire, to take advantage of some "lesser opponents", if we can put it that way?

Claire Buchanan:
I mean, in the grand scheme of things, yes, you want to be able to walk away with series and games against less threatening teams, of course. And Schneider can only say so many times, yeah, yeah. Well, there's lots of baseball left and all this stuff. But it's creeping up on you and we're almost at that time where every game, I know it's a long season, but we're approaching that time, where every game is going to matter no matter who it's against.
Bautista brought the playoffs back into Blue Jay's baseball, and we want to keep it that way and have this continue on as a team and an organization, that not only barely gets in the playoffs, but puts a good run together and really comes out as one of the best baseball teams in the league.
So, on paper, they are there, and they're just scratching by right now. But hopefully, we are on the right path to playing really good baseball, because... I mean, we did finish the series off pretty well.

Josh Watson :
I don't know that we can say anything other than, yes, this is a missed opportunity. I mean, we played Cleveland... I think we played the White Sox in this past run of games. We've played teams that we should be beating given what our aspirations were at the beginning of the year. And I don't think there's been enough go wrong that those aspirations should have changed.
We have a whole bunch of players, particularly, on the offensive side of the ball that just don't seem to be producing. And I don't know what the purpose of that is. I don't know what's causing that. I don't think they... Sorry, I don't know if there's too many voices in their ear or not enough voices in their ear, or if they're just squeezing the bat to splinters or what is going on, but these are teams that we should beat if we really have aspirations of a world series.
The rotation, as it sits, is performing amazingly. We can't complain about the five guys that we've got, and we had a sixth guy until very recently when Alek Manoah was once again demoted to Buffalo, which unfortunately, I think had to happen. When you look at the six guys that were there in the starting rotation, he was the weakest one. Do I feel bad for him? Of course. But you know what? We're finally, I think, I hope, getting into a meritocracy in this team, where you got to earn your playing time. And we can't have guys like Davis Schneider coming up and wowing us every week.
The guys that are on this team full-time have to be the ones to produce, and why isn't that happening?

Brock Richardson:
The one thing that I just want, and what I'm about to say is, as we record here, because it could change, but I want people to recognize because I've heard a lot of things of, oh, we beat the Houston Astros in a season series, so let's jump a spot. Well, I want to tell those people, if we jump a spot, guess what? That means we play the Tampa Bay Rays in the wild card series and/or the second round depending on how things flip.
And then, the reverse of that is that if we beat the Tampa Bay Rays, then, we play the Baltimore Orioles. Where we are right now, we are up against the Minnesota Twins in the wildcard, and then, the Texas Rangers. Guess what? Both of those teams have a less record than the Toronto Blue Jays. They've played 750 percentage-wise baseball against teams that are around the 500-level mark. We don't want to move up to that second spot.
Yes, it looks better in the standings at the end of the year, well, we are the second wild card, but in the end... To me, as I sit here, we want the pathway that is currently there. We don't need to jump up. What we need to focus on is getting into the playoffs, taking a deep breath, and then, finally, getting into where we need to get to. Have I seen what we need to see to get into it? No, I haven't. Not at all. But I'm definitely not going to see it against the Tampa Bay Rays and/or Baltimore Orioles in the playoffs, because those teams are just having fun, it seems, and just playing with no pressure.
I'm thinking of the Baltimore Orioles, they had no aspirations to do this year, and look at them. I mean, pressure really is a real thing. So, we need to see what the Toronto Blue Jays are made up over the next couple of weeks. But the people that are saying, let's jump, be careful what you wish for in that moment. What you're probably wishing for right now is for me to tell you how you can get ahold of us on social media. Here's how.

Speaker 1:
And welcome back to The Neutral Zone AMI broadcast booth.

Speaker X:
Play ball.

Speaker 1:
And we are set to get this ball game underway. The first pitch brought to you by Brock Richardson's Twitter account at Neutral Zone BR. First pitch, strike. And hey gang, why not strike up a Twitter chat with Claire Buchanan for the Neutral Zone? Find her at Neutral Zone CB.
And there's a swing in a chopper out to second base right at Claire. She picks up the ball, throws it over to first base out for a routine out. And fans, there is nothing routine about connecting with Cam and Josh from The Neutral Zone at Neutral Zone Cam J and at JWatson 200. Now, that's a winning combination. And this organ interlude is brought to you by AMI Audio on Twitter. Get in touch with The Neutral Zone, type in at AMI Audio.

Brock Richardson:
In March, I sat down with retired para ice hockey player and host of a AMI TV's Level Playing Field at the Canadian Paralympic Committee Summit. Who am I talking about? That's Greg Westlake from Vancouver, BC. Please, enjoy the interview.
So, let's start with Level Playing Field. What have you liked about that, and can you give us any of the inside scoop of what might be coming down the pipe?

Greg Westlake:
Yeah. I mean, Level Playing Field has been such an eye-opening experience for me, and it was really my introduction to the broadcast space, honestly. And I'm so grateful to AMI for giving us the opportunity.
I came in two, three seasons ago on the show, just strictly as a host, and I would just come in, and I wasn't as involved as I wanted to be. I would just come in and just strictly do some intros and some exits for some episodes, but I wasn't in every episode. I was maybe in two or three per season.
And as we started to build the show, I was like, guys, I want to be in every episode. And I just never had the opportunity between my own training schedule when AMI needed the shows done by. And so the guys that I was working on the show with just always had to go with other people.
And it wasn't until this past year when I retired from playing para ice hockey, we started our own broadcast company or production company, sorry, and AMI was so grateful to let us keep working on that show, because it really is our baby and we're in love with it. So now, we get to keep doing it. Now, I get to be a part of every episode, not just the host throws, but the interviews and in the actual show, I'm interacting the amazing guests.
That's one thing that's been different for me, is just fully immersing myself in that world.

Brock Richardson:
Why is that important, like when you doing this, it's one thing to say, I'm going to come in here and I'm going to say this line because it's scripted, but why, for you, is it important to be in the nitty-gritty, be there? Does it give you the whole broad feel of what's going on on the ground?

Greg Westlake:
Well, I think, as you would know, you're a great interviewer. The more you know about your subject, the guest, all that, the better you're going to be. And so, I thought one of my weaknesses as a host was I wasn't a great interviewer, and that's still, to this day, one thing I am working on to get better at every time out.
And so, the more episodes I could be in, the more I got to interact with the guests, I just found that made me a better interviewer. So, selfishly, I thought that that was something I needed to do to take the next step in my broadcast career. Alternatively, I feel like I was so lucky in my playing career, where I got to play for Hockey Canada and I got to play hockey in Canada, which is such a staple in this country, and we get some opportunities that not every para-sport gets.
And whether that's on the sponsorship side, on the commercial side, I just felt like I had just had such a positive experience in my amateur career. And then, you look across the entire para sport world and not every sport has the same funding background, not every sport has the same carding background and they need exposure. And they need shows like Level Playing Field to showcase them, show what they can do, and that's going to help spread their word, whatever their message is that that sport's conveying, that's what we give a voice to and I'm really proud of that.

Brock Richardson:
We haven't talked to you in a while on our program, and I want to talk a little bit about Hockey Canada. It's been no secret that they've been in the news, and I want to focus more on the para side.
How do you see what's gone on with Hockey Canada trickling down to the para side in a positive or negative form?

Greg Westlake:
When you say what's going on with Hockey Canada, what do you mean by that?

Brock Richardson:
Like with them being the news, with money going different places, how does that trickle down to the para sport world?

Greg Westlake:
Well, it's a great question, and of course, a tough topic to touch on. I think whenever there's controversy and stuff like that at the top of an organization, I think what's unfortunate is all the programs suffer. And there is amazing athletes and people who don't just work in the para program at Hockey Canada, but all over Hockey Canada. I have some of my best lifelong friends who are photographers there who work in PR there who are just amazing people that I'm so happy I got to know.
And what's unfortunate is when bad things like that happen at an organization, some of the great stories don't get to get told. Everybody in the media wants to focus on where are the funds going and some of the transgressions that have gone on. And people don't get to talk as much about cancer survivor, Tyler McGregor, and people don't talk as much about the amazing hockey player, Liam Hickey is and all these guys, and that gets lost in the shuffle.
And I think that's one thing that makes me kind of sad and disappointed in the whole thing.

Brock Richardson:
That's fair, and I totally agree with that. I think that we're moving in the right direction with Hockey Canada. I think the right decisions have been made in moving it in the right direction.
The para site has not won a gold medal at the Paralympic Games since Torino 2006. What's missing here? Where do you see as an outsider now looking at this, going, why haven't they won? What's missing?

Greg Westlake:
Well, that's a great question. And of course, I was on the front lines there for a lot of those games and I was in those battles. And the one thing I would say to that is we don't play a best-of-seven series. We play a gold medal game, and we live and die with that result. And I think if you go to Pyeongchang in 2018, we had a lead with 30 seconds left. They tie the game, they win in overtime in a four-on-four situation, which doesn't favour us at all. They're a faster, younger team.
And so, if you look at that, if we're able to clog up the neutral zone for 20 more seconds, we're gold medalists in 2018, and this question isn't even asked. So, the gap there was so close for a moment of time that we just needed one bounce in the other direction and we could have been gold medalists at those games.
Now, that being said, you go to the most recent games. In China, we lost that game six, nothing in the gold medal game. That's one where, all of a sudden, you can say, okay, that looks like a gap there. That looks like there's a gap. And that's where we need to start trying to close that gap.
But it is very hard. You have to be very honest in your assessments of the team and have some hard conversations with yourself and your teammates, because, sometimes, it could just be one of those games where a break here and there and you only get one game, you don't get a best of seven. But other times, maybe there is a gap, and that's the harder question to figure out.

Brock Richardson:
Is that the part where you think the media, as I'm sitting here asking you this question, do you think that we fail para ice hockey in saying things like, well, they haven't won a gold medal since 2006, and that makes it sound like there's such a gap, but when you speak to how close it is, do you think we, as the media, fail the para ice hockey community, just based on the time that has lapsed?

Greg Westlake:
I wouldn't say all media. I would never lump a whole group of people. I would say that there's some mainstream broadcasters that we need more from, that we need to tell our stories. I always think that we need to model our game after the women's game. Some of my heroes now in the hockey world are people like Cassie Campbell-Pascall, people like Hayley Wickenheiser who built this amazing women's program, and then, they also went on to these amazing careers, whether it's broadcast or sport after their playing days were over.
Now, if you look at the sustainability and how successful that women's program is, it's unbelievable. And now, they're getting multiple games a year on TSN, on the sports nets, on the major broadcast networks. And until you get the opportunity to start sharing your stories to the masses, you can't get mad at anyone for just stating facts. So, what you said was a fact, we have not won since 2006, and we can't hide behind that. And if we want to close that gap and if we want to win gold again, I think we have to look at the mirror and be very honest in our assessment with ourselves that we haven't won.
The only caveat in that is that the team did win in 2013 in the World Championship. They won the World Championship in 2017. So, there has been little sprinkles of success in there. And sometimes, those can be tough ones. When you win the World Championship the year before the Paralympics, I think it puts you on the right path. You think that nothing has to change. And then, when you don't win in the Paralympics, all of a sudden, that's your eye-opening experience.
So, sometimes, it's when you win that kind of impacts the program as well.

Brock Richardson:
You could say this about all the conventional sports and that, sometimes, the easy scapegoat is the coaching staff. And when things don't go well, that's the easy answer, because you can sit there and you can say, wow, I have the talent of Greg Westlake, I have the talent of Billy Bridges back in the day. Is that the easy answer? Do you think that we've been a bit unfair to coaches as a broader level where it's like, "Oh, we didn't get the results, so there you go"?

Greg Westlake:
Well, I think coaches live in that really hard world of it's easier to find a new coach than 17, 18, 20 new players. So, they often take the brunt of failures, and it's too bad. I would say we've had a lot of really high-level coaches. We've had coaches that have successful college university programs, coaches that coach in major junior hockey, coaches that have coached in the NHL. So, to say that these guys can't offer some wisdom and some great aspects to our team would be false.
They've brought a tremendous amount of knowledge, a tremendous amount of high-performance training to our team. I'm a fan of all the coaches that have come through and put time in with our program. For me, I think recruitment in para-sport is something that isn't just important for para hockey, but every para-sport. And as Canadians, we should be really proud that we don't live in a war-driven country that doesn't send an army to every little thing.
The US gets a lot of military veterans back, wounded, and they get them involved in para-sport and they develop great athletes that way, and great community leaders that way. We don't have that same pool to pick from. We need to have relationships with our rehab hospitals, with our military, with places where disabled people find themselves after a time of adversity.
And if we can find ourselves with good relationships with those places and help show people that there's these amazing things you can go on and accomplish, that you don't have to go down a dark path before you start going the right way, we can get you on the right path right away.
And so, I think if we start doing some of those little things, we'll recruit more athletes, we'll get better people, and long-term, it'll lead to great gold medal performances.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. I think it's all a process. And I think it's easy for people to want to sit and snap their fingers and say, let's just do this this year. And it's not fair to say that.
You've been removed for a little while, what do you want your legacy to be as a para ice hockey player, and further to that, your legacy as the broader para ice hockey in the sport?

Greg Westlake:
Honestly, oh, man, I don't even think about that stuff. I just love the game. I'm a guy that just loves the game. I didn't cheat it. Every practice, every game, I left it all out there. We talk so much about wins and losses, for me, I just want to be a heart and soul guy. I absolutely love the fact that I got to play hockey for as long as I did.
I pride myself as being a guy that never said no to anything. If you wanted me to go get on a plane at 4:00 AM, fly to the other side of the country to speak to a group of school kids, I said yes. If you wanted me to stay after practice to work with a local club team, I said yes. I care more about that stuff than anything in terms of playing.
So, I love to play. I feel so lucky that I got to play, but I hope people know that I never cheated the game, and I was always down to help anyone.

Brock Richardson:
If Hockey Canada came to Greg Westlake in two, three, four years and said, "Hey, we want you to coach", how long would it take you to think about that and would you think about taking on the role?

Greg Westlake:
Absolutely. I don't know if I'm a coach. You got to get your certifications. There's things you got to do, and I haven't done those things, so I don't know. I just know I love the program. I don't know if my best role to help that program is to coach it, but I would do some guest coaching. I'd go in there, and see if there's a fit for me somewhere there. I love the program, and they know that I'm a phone call away and my answer is yes to whatever they ask me.

Brock Richardson:
Why are days like today important for the broader picture of the Paralympic movement?

Greg Westlake:
Well, day like today, a media summit's huge, because the media needs to be your friend. And growing up, when you do media training, people will try to convince you that the media is the enemy, that they're going to twist your words, and it couldn't be further from the truth.
I have made so many great friends from the great people at AMI to the people at CBC, like the Scott Russells of the world, who now sit on the board for the Canadian Paralympic Committee. There are people out there that want to help you, that want to share your story, but, we as athletes, need to make ourselves available, lay the walls down and open ourselves up a little bit.
And if we can do that, the amount of other people going through trauma in their life we can help is astronomical, and then, we got our own stories out there. And then, that speaks to sponsors, that speaks to the general population, that's going to help grow your brand.
So, days like today are just so important on so many levels, from helping the next generation to helping you as an individual reach your goals as an athlete.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah, I think we need to take down the walls of media day is scary. When I started in my career, nobody ever wanted to do media days. It was like keep me away. In my sport, everybody was... Most of us were nonverbal and nobody wanted to do it. Well, nobody's going to take the time to... Let me use my light writer. And I agree with you, that's the furthest thing from the truth.
I think people are going to give you the time. We've had ample time with the 12 athletes we've had thus far, and I think if you give people the space, they're going to open up and talk to you. It's just phrasing the questions in the right way.
Greg, thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it. As I know, it was kind of an impromptu thing.

Greg Westlake:
Have me back some time. I love chatting with you.

Brock Richardson:
That was Greg Westlake, talking to us about his career and Hockey Canada, and a little bit about Level Playing Field. He comes from North Vancouver, British Columbia.
We hope you enjoyed the interview. And if you want to get ahold of us in any way, shape or form, by voicemail, here's how you can do it.

Speaker 1:
If you want to leave a message for The Neutral Zone, call now, 1-866-509-4545. And don't forget to give us permission to use your message on the air. Let's get ready to leave a voicemail.

Brock Richardson:
Sometimes, we get into some deep conversations, and today is one of those days where we're going to get into a deep chat. And let me put it together for you here. I saw a study that CBC did four years ago, and it found that 400 youth were assaulted by their coaches both physically and sexually as well.
So, let me put this into a little bit of context. They recently did a follow-up study, and still, finding that 83 athletes are still being assaulted in different ways.
So, I'm curious from you guys, when we look at the news clip that we use as our reference point in the article, what do you make out of this study? Claire, start with you.

Claire Buchanan:
Well, first off, I'm glad that these studies are happening and this information is available. It sucks that these studies are being made though because of these things happening, especially in places where, say, for an example, you are taking your kids to somewhere that you hope that you can trust those people there and give those athletes and everyone around them a safe and fun environment and... Yeah, it always is really... It hurts to see that this is still happening, and it's kind of hard because you kind feel like you're at a standstill. You don't really know how to make changes.
But on the other end of it, there are a lot of ways in which organizations and policies and stuff like that are coming into fruition of being able to protect athletes and giving them outlets to talk about it and feel safe coming to people, to let people know what's going on. So, yeah, I'm glad that athletes do have a lot more support systems available these days, but again, it shouldn't be happening.

Josh Watson :
Yeah. For me, I found the whole thing rather shocking. On the one hand, I'm glad the information is out there as you said, Claire. Because, if nothing else, I hope that it shows kids that are going through this, you're not alone, and there are people out there that want to help you.
Honestly, reading that article, listening to that article, my first thought is, I'm glad I'm not in your shoes, Claire, because I'd be afraid for my kids. I really would. The fact that when the study was conducted, there were 400, and since the study, there's been 83 more, it has to stop.
There has to be some kind of oversight. There has to be some kind of better programming in place. There has to be better ways for kids to tell people what's going on. Because when it comes right down to it, one kid is too many. It just is. One kid is too many.

Brock Richardson:
Here to that. Totally. For me, and again, just to put some... Full context on this. A kid, a youth is somebody who is under the age of 30, I believe, is what the number is. And so, that's a big window. It's big. But the thing that came to my mind was studies like this would have to make children question people. In other words, you could have a person that is fully intending on being the greatest coach and doing everything between the lines within the rules, but studies like this and what we saw with Hockey Canada, this has to make youth question what's happening.
And so, for me, I would go with my guard up, and that's almost not really fair, because not everyone is in this boat, not every coach is like this, obviously. But for me, I would go with my guard up. And it's sort of a scary place to be, a scary place to start. Because sports, recreation is supposed to be the fun thing. And now, we're getting all these things where it's like, oh, this happens 400, down to 83. And it's like, yeah, but kids now going into it, and parents who are guardians of those children have to be really, really scared of this.
And so, Claire, as somebody who, the only one of us on this panel who has a child, how do you vet, okay, this is a good program, how do you vet children being children, like what is your thought process when you specifically think of this study as youth only?

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah. I mean, my son isn't in any organized sports yet or at this moment. And I can tell you that I get a similar kind of caution with anything that I kind of involve my kid with, anywhere from school to new friends, and really, any interaction with humans is, yeah, you kind of put up your guard and you want to be protective. Of course, their safety is number one. And so, I approach any connection or situation like that with one communication telling Dash, where he is, who he's around, and like tell kids that they're always, like you said, able and should be able to feel safe asking questions.
I don't jump into any connection, whether it's friendship or personal or anything before getting to know someone. Right? So, it's the same thing that you have to approach putting your kids into sports like that, and at any age that, give it time, trust your gut, and know that if you don't feel comfortable in any situation, that you are absolutely allowed to speak up.
Like I said earlier on, it's good to know that the supports are there, that if they don't feel comfortable going to a head coach or saying something to their parents, that there is kind of this third party option to get the information out there.
So, yeah, you got to trust your gut, but you also... It's hard to give people benefit of the doubt these days with stuff like this coming up.

Brock Richardson:
Josh, as an athlete, I grew up, I'm 32, I'll be 33 this January, and my parents always told us, respect authority. And I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't, today, respect authority, but when a coach spoke and maybe got a little bit angry with us or a little bit frustrated, we listened. And I think that anger can sort of turn today into a different way, and we can sort of push the boundary way, way too far.
And so, my question is, what do you think has happened between 20 years ago to today? Is it just that, now, we're hearing it in the media, so things that could have been happening 20 years ago, we don't necessarily know about, and now, that it's in the media, or do you think there's something else going on in this picture 20 years ago versus today?

Speaker 5:
I think it's a combination of things. I think, first and foremost, it gets reported more. It's not any longer a situation where it's like, oh, that's just Mr So-and-so, he's just like that. It's like, no, something's not right here, and it gets reported.
I don't think that happened back then, because we didn't talk about those things. And I think that's a big part of the problem. I also think while it's necessary that these things come out, I think it's also important that we teach youth that you do have to respect authority, but that there are limits. And if you are uncomfortable with something you are being asked, then, as Claire said, you have the right to speak up, and that that's not being disrespectful as long as you do it the right way.
But for the most part, I want to believe that it's just being reported more, so that we are seeing it more. I don't want to think that we're in a world where this is happening more than it was when we were kids, because I mean, I out dwarf the two of you myself. So... I mean, it's scary, it's really scary. And I hope we don't get to a point where kids are afraid to do things or try things because of what might happen.
Because sports is a lot of fun. We've all played sports, we all know the joy of sports, and I just think it's important that we teach kids that, yes, these things have happened, and yes, we have to be vigilant and make sure that they don't continue to happen, but that they are still rare.
I'll use the analogy, it's kind of like plane crashes. We hear about plane crashes all the time now. It doesn't mean that the airlines are any less safe than they were. It just means that we're hearing about it more. And that's a good thing, because we can be better educated.

Brock Richardson:
Yeah. When I was in sports, the line was always used, oh, this person has a police check, and it was for the vulnerable sector and it was for youth. And it seems like that was always the moment of, this person's not somebody that I should be scared of. I can only assume that these people have to go through more checks and more background, and yet, it's still happening.
And so, for me, it's like, yes, a police check of vulnerable sector, though it is important, it's not the end all be all here. And I think there also has to be teaching of the coaches, of the people that want to be involved.
Most people, when they start, are going to say, ah, I would never do that, or I would never be a part of that situation, but something happens. There's some reason whether right, wrong or indifferent, in that individual's mind why something is okay in that moment. Is it okay? Absolutely not. But they don't go into it going, this is what I'm going to do. Something happens in any given situation that makes a switch sort of flip, for argument's sake.
So, beyond the police checks and beyond the, oh, this person is safe, Claire, what more do you believe can be done in the whole grand scheme of the situation?

Claire Buchanan:
Well, I think you touched on a great point, is that... I mean, do we really know at any level what the minimum requirement is that... What type of screening each and every organization does? There's so many organizations and so many sports out there. If you just think about the number of organizations just in the city of Toronto, there's hundreds, and you span that across an entire country. It's an overwhelming number, which is good. That means that sport is highly-accessible throughout the country, but how are we actually keeping a tabs on who's in these positions?
And, of course, are they being screened, especially at a volunteer level? For the most part, people get into volunteer positions like that, just because they want to help and want to be a part of it. Is that person still going through the same screening position that, say, a head coach is going through? And I think that's what needs to be figured out, is what is actually happening at that level.

Brock Richardson:
For me, it's not a question of are they being screened? It's a question of are they being screened enough? Is a paper enough for someone to say, yes, this person is safe? Well, in the beginning, that paper Josh means, yes, I'm safe. I haven't done any criminal this or that. Is there teaching that can be done?
I mean, as athletes, we went through a bunch of modules, and the coaches went through a bunch of modules, but should there be more emphasis on a physical, concrete this is what you're going to do to see that number go down from 83, and I know I'm going to use this number and use it in this situation, but that number should be 83 down to zero.
So, for me, there still has to be more, rather than the paper saying, yes, this person is safe, Josh.

Josh Watson :
I do think that the background checks and the police checks are important. They need to happen, absolutely. We also need to make it very, very easy for issues to be reported, investigated, and for discipline to be upfront. Because the one issue that we're always going to have with this scenario is that these people have had to lurk in the shadows their entire lives, that when they get caught, it's not because they just tried something, it's because they slipped up and someone caught them.
So, we need to make it very easy for kids and youth to report these issues. We need to make sure... One thing that the article talked about was funding, and how organizations feel that, well, there has to be more government funding. Well, government funding is great, but where is that funding going?
It's great if it goes to Hockey Canada or Volleyball Canada, Gymnastics Canada, but those organizations, when it comes right down to it, they really only service the most elite athletes. What we need to be funding are the grassroots organizations. Because at the end of it, that's where a lot of these people are going to get their start. And it's like the, oh, oh, that quiet neighbour down the hall that works with kids. Unfortunately, those are the ones we have to watch, because they make themselves into chameleons. They make themselves look like they're harmless.
And then, they start with grooming not only the kids, but the parents, too. They convince the parents that, oh, it's okay for them to go on this overnight trip to this tournament with me. It's fine, don't worry about it. No. We should be worried about it, and we should be doing something more to, maybe not screen people because screening is only going to catch them if they get caught, but we need to make it easy to report them when things are happening.

Brock Richardson:
One of the things that was pointed out in the article and in the news clip that was there was this idea of a national inquiry. And a national inquiry means that the government gets involved, and then, you get murky and you get this and that.
Claire, has this become a buzzphrase? We've heard it twice in the last number of years. Hockey Canada went through it rightfully so, and now, we're discussing it with youth sports. Is this the right thing to do, or is it just a buzzword? And I'd like to get Josh in on this too in the next minute and a half, two minutes on this one. If you could give your thoughts.

Claire Buchanan:
Yeah. I mean, I don't even know what to make of it anymore. You almost become desensitized to it. So, hearing it over and over again, I guess all the pun intended, but it loses its buzz.
Yeah, it's happening so much that you kind of go, oh, well, there it is again-kind of thing. Yeah. There's less and less shock value the more and more you hear about it.

Josh Watson :
Yeah. An inquiry is great, but what are you going to do with the results? Because too often, the results get put into a binder that's this thick, and then, it gets put on a shelf, and nothing happens.
This is not something that can just be swept away. This has to be resolved. This has to be dealt with. And I think it starts with the funding model. The funding should be grassroots up to elite, not the other way around.

Brock Richardson:
And I'm not sure that the government is the form of unbiased scenarios here. I do think you need someone who, or people who are going to come in with no skin in the game, nothing. And I'm not sure the government is that forum, because the government's going to turn around and say in their next political run, look what we've done. We've done a national inquiry over Hockey Canada. We've done a national inquiry over... They're going to use it as a platform. Even if it's well-intended, they're going to use it as a platform.
And I just don't know that the government is my police force, for lack of a better phrase, that I need to use, because that party can change in any four-year span. So, to me, we need more consistency. We need to make children, youth, adults, everyone feel comfortable in sports. And I think that this is sort of weighing on what people are thinking.
I have to close this, and to put a wrap on it, kids, you need to find someone or some people that make you feel comfortable in sports. If you're going through anything, there are lots of avenues that you can do that. And we're going to post on our show notes, which article we used for the jumping point of this conversation because I think it is important.
That is the end of our show for this week. I'd like to thank Josh Watson, Claire Buchanan. I'd also like to thank our technical producer, Mark Apollo. Our podcast coordinator is Ryan Delehanty. And we will talk to you next week. Be safe and be well. (music)