Ardra Shephard:
I'm Ardra Shephard, and this is Tripping On Air, a place to talk shit about what it's like to have MS. Normally, I like to make everything about me, but MS also affects the people we love. So weighing in from the partner perspective is Alex Hajjar, my friend whose wife also has MS. Join us monthly as we dish about everything from symptoms to stigma. If you have MS or you love someone who does, we want to connect with you.
Happy new year, trippers, it's 2023. Our guest today is an author, speaker, host and comedian. He's the highlight of my social media feed, he's a self-described optimist adventurer who happens to have cerebral palsy, the sexiest of the palsies. Trippers, we've got the one and only Zach Anner on the show. Zach, welcome to the show and happy new year.

Zach Anner:
Oh, thank you. Happy new year to you. I am so glad that you are able to even function in the first few days of the new year. How are we feeling? Did we party too hard? Did we eat too much? What's going on?

Ardra Shephard:
I feel like just every normal day for me is too much. I ate too much-

Zach Anner:
Every day is a party.

Ardra Shephard:
Every day is a party.

Alex Hajjar:
It should be though.

Ardra Shephard:
That's right.

Alex Hajjar:
I think it's well deserved.

Ardra Shephard:
Totally, yeah. So new year's is a time for resolutions, and when we think about this time of year, a lot of times we're thinking about what we want to fix about ourselves. For people with chronic illness, in my case MS, I feel like there's this constant pressure to try to fix MS through diet or exercise or whatever, and it is not that easy. We are told to fight MS and I feel like that can put us in a battle against ourselves, which is of course totally gross. Zach, this time last year you launched your 2022 Like Yourself Challenge, where you encouraged people to think about one thing every day that they already liked about themselves, and I loved this. Even if the challenge didn't quite make it to the end of the year, which-

Zach Anner:
Oh, my god. It fell off completely after four months, right?

Ardra Shephard:
But I also love that, because three cheers for being able to say, "Fuck it," when something is too much. Do you think it's particularly important for people with disabilities to embrace this self-love? What motivated you to at least start this challenge, even if you didn't finish it last year?

Zach Anner:
Well, here's the deal, and I'll explain how it fell off a cliff and why I started it in the beginning. I think that self-love is wonderful and important, but I feel like you have to remind yourself that you also are somebody that you want to hang around with and that you are actively liking yourself. Because love is something deep, love is something really deep that like even when I'm happy with myself, I still can love myself, which is great and important.
But I wanted to start this challenge just to remind people, "Hey, there's a lot that's already great about you, even the little things that you need to be cheering yourself on about." It was not even like, "Oh, there's something that needs to change." There are things that are already in place that make you great, and if you want to make a change, then actually thinking, "Oh, I'm somebody that's cool and deserving of this work," is a great place to start.

Ardra Shephard:
I love that. So were you thinking of this in general, because I do feel like there is this kind of pressure for people with disabilities to try and fix themselves. I don't know if that happens in the cerebral palsy community, but with MS for sure there's this idea of being a warrior or a fighter and always trying to take this responsibility to fix yourself. I think that can put you a battle with yourself, which doesn't feel so great.

Zach Anner:
Yeah. I think it's important to admit when things suck and when things are difficult, and I think there is such a thing as ... Sometimes in the disability community, I feel like that becomes the narrative because that's what people without disabilities want to see is like, "Oh, look, this person has a condition I don't have and look what they're making of it." I feel like that's almost for the benefit of the able-bodied community sometimes, and we internalize that of like we need to fight through and inspire somehow. I don't buy into that.

Ardra Shephard:
I totally relate to that on so many levels. I think everybody who has a disability, who has a book or a podcast or a show, myself included, claims that they are funny, and in your case you actually are funny, but ...

Zach Anner:
I'm a solid six.

Ardra Shephard:
Six and a half. No, you are solidly funny, but do you feel this pressure to be this palatable-disabled person?

Zach Anner:
I used to. I really used to feel like I needed to present, in order to make the world more accessible, I needed to present the most successful version of myself to the world. Now I don't really, I am a generally pretty positive person, but I used to feel like that was the only side of myself that I could show or else my audience or the people who follow me wouldn't like it. Now, I don't really feel that, because I feel like what they really were responding to is this is who we see as a genuine guy. So even if I am being positive, I always try and tamper it with something just a little bit negative and say like, "You're seeing this positive minute-and-a-half or three-minute video of me, but just know that's because that's the minute I'm choosing to show you." Because that's the question that I get so often from commenters is how do you stay so positive? My answer is always because I'm not filming the negative stuff. That's how.

Alex Hajjar:
I'm only positive for about three minutes a day as well, that's about as much as I can muster.

Zach Anner:
That's about the right amount. The weight of the world catches up with you, but you can still enjoy a nice milkshake now and then and be like, "This is great." Just distract yourself a little bit.

Alex Hajjar:
So I've got a question, is anyone making resolutions anymore? I don't know, I don't think I've made one since 2020.

Zach Anner:
I hope not. Because honestly, I know that it's 2023, but I might just pick up the Like Yourself Challenge again and just keep going. That's the thing, I feel like we set ourselves up, we're always like, "Oh, it's got to be in this frame of time." Then the question that I have is why? Why, if we start something and fall off, is that the end of the world? Why are we falling off the edge of Mount Doom if we let something go? That's the thing that I've realized is you can pick up anything at any time and just, progress is progress, it doesn't have to be based in that calendar year. I know that the Canadian calendar is different anyway.

Ardra Shephard:
That's true, that's true. Yeah, I think we're what, one week behind you or something like that?

Zach Anner:
Yeah. Do you guys have that 400-day calendar year, right?

Ardra Shephard:
So I want to make a case for resolutions. I agree with you, Zach, I'm the kind of person that makes changes and tries to do new things, I don't wait necessarily for a milestone to do those things. Though tiny case I will say for setting resolutions, even if we know 99.9% of people fail, is because I think it's worthwhile to take stock every now and then, and even if you don't follow through on what you say you're going to do, it gives you a chance to identify at least what you want in life or changes that you want to make or what's good in your life or I don't know.

Zach Anner:
Do you have an example of when it's actually been a tangible difference in your life to start a resolution? Has it felt good? Has there been a year that's felt like, "Oh, man. Really, really nailed it."

Ardra Shephard:
Honestly, I'm a little bit of an overachiever.

Zach Anner:
I can tell that, I can tell that just because you have books behind you.

Ardra Shephard:
I do have books. But I speak four languages, I know.

Zach Anner:
Whoa.

Ardra Shephard:
I'm a lifelong learner, I'm always setting these kinds of goals, so I don't necessarily wait for New Year's. But I think-

Zach Anner:
I bet that you achieve a lot of them.

Ardra Shephard:
I do, yeah. I do.

Zach Anner:
So what would be your recommendation to people like me who sets a lot of these goals and then just gets so distracted?

Ardra Shephard:
Are you distracted by things you enjoy? Are you happy with those distractions?

Zach Anner:
Well, I have the memory of a fruit fly. I think there's a lot of ADD energy coming from me. But I think what happened with the Like Yourself Challenge, if I'm being honest, is about four months in there was a lot of personal, I wouldn't call it tragedy, but drama going on with family stuff, and then the world fell apart with different wars and things. Is it really useful for me to go on and say, "I like that I can go and get a haircut and just accept a bad haircut," is that worthwhile when the world is falling apart? That's my struggle is to always think, "Is the small thing disrespectful to the larger picture?"

Ardra Shephard:
That's a responsibility of somebody who has an audience and a platform, so I think it's really thoughtful of you to consider those things, but I definitely would argue that there is a place for those kinds of moments of joy, especially on the internet.

Zach Anner:
Yeah. I just feel like if there's any corner of joy you can carve out of the internet, that's a goal.

Ardra Shephard:
Totally.

Zach Anner:
But I think when I get distracted, to answer your original question, I am somebody who chases momentary happiness, sometimes at the expense of long-term joy.

Ardra Shephard:
Well, I think that's most of us, that instant gratification.

Zach Anner:
So where did you learn your long-haul skills from to just do stuff? Or is that innately in you?

Ardra Shephard:
I think it's just in me. I'm just one of those, I just do what I say I'm going to do. But come on, Zach, you're pretty accomplished yourself.

Zach Anner:
Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

Ardra Shephard:
It's not.

Alex Hajjar:
It's not. It's not a Canadian thing.

Zach Anner:
I was promised as an American that everything would be easy, and when it isn't sometimes I bail.

Alex Hajjar:
We were never allowed to have video games when I was a kid and now that's my go-to distraction. So if I've got a goal, I'm like, "I'm definitely going to learn these songs on guitar." Then my brain will immediately switch to, "I need to beat that level first." Then I'll get into that-

Ardra Shephard:
That's a goal, Alex.

Zach Anner:
So your homework, the thing that is like the thing that you have to do that's so hard is learn songs on guitar?

Alex Hajjar:
I have to play them live sometimes too for other people.

Zach Anner:
Isn't that the passion? Isn't that the fun thing?

Alex Hajjar:
It is, but it's the procrastination that gets in the way. That's what I'm saying, it's fruit fly memory. So it's akin to fruit fly memory where it's like, "I need to play this song," which I enjoy doing.

Ardra Shephard:
No, it's more like squirrel.

Alex Hajjar:
I also want to beat this level and put this off. Maybe, yeah.

Zach Anner:
Yeah, squirrel.

Alex Hajjar:
Sure, okay. Okay, so I think, Zach, we've established that you're an optimistic dude, but with that in mind, has there been an impact on your sense of optimism over the last couple years with all the existential dread that's happening?

Zach Anner:
I think, well, I lived in Buffalo, New York, moved back with my family in Buffalo, New York for two and a half years. Just moved back out to Los Angeles last week, and yeah. So moving back into your childhood bedroom as a 36-year-old man when the pandemic started, and getting back here at 30 ... No, I was 35 I think when it started, and now I'm 38. So that was a little blow to my self-esteem, because there were things that I had built up as being important to me, specifically as someone with a disability, because I think when you have a disability it's drilled into you in a not always helpful way that independence is the most important thing.
What the pandemic taught me or reinforced was that independence in itself is overrated and we all rely on other people to make things happen. I hope that the whole world got that picture a little bit, because when I moved back in March 2020, the whole thing was like I'm somebody whose independence is actually I'm really dependent on food delivery services and housekeeping services and Uber drivers that were not safe during the pandemic. So it just made me really appreciate the support system that I have, and also it made me appreciate the time that I had with my family and take a step back and not be so goal oriented and be like ... My parents are getting older, how much more time, quality time do I have with them? Maybe take this as a gift and not try and measure what my accomplishments are and directly tie that to my happiness.

Ardra Shephard:
Or your sense of self-worth. I think we, as a society, we value independence so much so that we almost stigmatize needing assistance in the other direction. It's so hard to find the grace of being able to accept help and I have struggled with this also. That sounds like you were on a real journey throughout that. I feel like just if I had to move back with my parents, I would immediately regress to my teenage self, which would not be fun for anyone.

Zach Anner:
Oh, and that happened too. That happened too. I didn't do laundry once, and I played a thousand games of Yahtzee, and now that I've been through it, wouldn't trade it for anything just being able to have so much time with family. But just being in this new apartment now, being able to do things like the dishes and wash my own clothes, I take such deep appreciation from that, that it's just like, "Oh, this is great." I just get a lot of satisfaction out of doing those types of things now, but it's also with independence versus accepting help and interdependence and all that stuff.
I've learned that the things, whether or not I can do something is less important than how long is it going to take me to do it, will it derail the rest of my life? It would take me a day to put on a fitted sheet for example, I've done it twice. It's very hard to do that when you're actually on the bed, which is how I have to do it, and you're just pulling corners and running over to one corner, going over to the next one, and it just never worked. But if I can hire someone to do this and pay them and it can be an exchange in appreciation, certain things are not worth it. Certain things, it's worth it to me to ask for help because this allows me to do the things that I am genuinely good at, like are me adding some value into the world.

Ardra Shephard:
I think for me it's a constant negotiation when it's one thing if I'm paying for help, it's another thing when I'm trying to do the math on how much is my discomfort worth asking for my husband, who has just sat down, to get up and get me that thing, the glass of water, wine, that would take me 10 minutes to walk and get myself, that I would drop and break and then he would have to clean up? Always doing these calculations of how irritating am I going to be versus how uncomfortable am I?

Zach Anner:
I think we often undervalue, as people with disabilities, how much we add and how much value we do have and how much joy and meaning we put into the world, and we just always, it's always an equation out of like, "Well, this person did this for me and I won't be able to do that for them." But most of the time, if you are acknowledging, what I've learned much too late is just to be more aware and have the gratitude and realize that I'm also bringing a lot to the table. When I was younger, the only way that I could think to even try and level the playing field at all was I used to pay for everything for friends, because I thought there's no way that I can, they're doing a lot for me physically and I feel like I need to have something to give. As soon as I started making money, I was like, "Oh, that's it then." But I've learned that what I actually bring from my humanity is probably enough.

Ardra Shephard:
I love that, Zach. I feel the same, the way you're like, "My helpers bring this to the table, I bring this to the table." I feel the same way, except it's like I know I'm being annoying, but you are also annoying.

Zach Anner:
Yeah.

Ardra Shephard:
I can be annoying, but it's not like-

Zach Anner:
Embracing that we're going to be annoying is part, that's the greatest gift you can give yourself.

Ardra Shephard:
We can still love each other.

Zach Anner:
Stop trying to not be annoying. Because I feel like I have talked myself into being more annoying, because I always try and be like, "I don't need any help." I talk in circles and then finally accept the help, which is way more annoying than just saying, "Yeah, it would be better if you did it. It would be so much easier if you did it."

Ardra Shephard:
How many, do you say sorry, do you apologize? You apologize a lot?

Alex Hajjar:
That seems to have trickled down south of the border.

Zach Anner:
Sorry is my, I start every sentence with sorry.

Ardra Shephard:
It's gross, why do we do that?

Alex Hajjar:
You are an honourable Canadian, then.

Zach Anner:
So deeply apologetic for everything I've ever done and everything I ever will do.

Ardra Shephard:
Okay. Well, maybe Alex can weigh in here, because Alex's wife has MS, so Alex is in that partner, caring, caregiver role.

Alex Hajjar:
Yeah. Whenever I'm asked to do a task, it's just an automatic I'm going to do it. There's no, "Stop being annoying." Because you're not annoying to me, so from the partner perspective, in my case anyways, I don't think anybody who, I don't think Nicole's being annoying.

Ardra Shephard:
It's never annoying? Sometimes?

Alex Hajjar:
I feel like sometimes there's a pang.

Zach Anner:
You may not have to say it on the podcast, but it's okay.

Alex Hajjar:
Full disclosure, there's a pang.

Zach Anner:
I suspect if people aren't annoyed with me a little bit sometimes, and if it doesn't boil over sometimes, then I suspect they're secretly annoyed with me all the time.

Alex Hajjar:
Okay, fair enough. So full disclosure, there are pangs of resentment once in a while, but generally, I think I should have said the overarching feeling is that I'm not annoyed, I'll get the hot water bottle or I'll get the coffee or I'll get whatever you need. But if I've laid down on the bed about to read a really great book or something like that.

Ardra Shephard:
You mean play a video game, let's be real, Alex.

Alex Hajjar:
Or watch TikTok or something like that.

Zach Anner:
How many books have you bought so that you can hold them up on the podcast?

Alex Hajjar:
It's from the library.

Zach Anner:
Oh, it's from the library. I love that it's from the library.

Alex Hajjar:
See? Right? Yeah, exactly. I'm a library guy. But yeah, so once in a while I think there's like, "Ugh, I just wanted to sit down and watch TikTok." But I live in a very, very small apartment, so walking the whatever three meters to the kitchen is not that big of an annoyance. Maybe the bigger the house, the more annoying it becomes.

Ardra Shephard:
... I'll take care of the brain damage.

Alex Hajjar:
Well, I did show the book, so I did want to say in your book, you do say in nearly every interaction with somebody new, your first job is to undo all the misconceptions you have about people with disabilities. Even as a partner of someone with a disability, I feel like there are regularly misconceptions that I, myself I have to correct. So like we were talking about, I think there's a tendency for people to underestimate Nicole, underestimate the person with disabilities, and overestimate me.
Like I said, I can be pretty lazy and procrastinating and I'll veg out and play video games for hours if given the opportunity. I just got my cat an auto feeder because they exist, and that's one of those things where I was doing the math-

Zach Anner:
Do have the self-cleaning litter box too?

Alex Hajjar:
I don't, I haven't got there yet, no.

Zach Anner:
I feel like all cat owners-

Alex Hajjar:
It's on my Amazon wishlist.

Zach Anner:
Yeah, there is a level of laziness of like, "I will trade the love of a dog for just the easiness of a cat."

Alex Hajjar:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Ardra Shephard:
No, way. Ugh.

Alex Hajjar:
Nicole, she's actually superhuman, so she does everything that she does and then she also has to deal with MS. But what we do, like I was saying, the overarching thing is this is normal for us. But heading into 2023, what is one delusion about disability that you want to clear up?

Zach Anner:
Heading into 2023, I think what I would like to just communicate about disability, which is something that I learned way too late, is that the intersectionality of disability and other prejudices and other marginalization, the intersectionality of that really affects the disability experience. I didn't understand that until way too late. I have a disability, but I'm still a White guy, so I get a lot of privileges that White guys get. My disability experience has been shaped by that, and if I were someone of a different race, that experience would be vastly different because I've never had to fear for my life or my health based on having cerebral palsy.
That's not the case with everybody. I'm not the person to really speak to that in great detail, because I only have my experience, but just knowing that like, "Oh, okay." I always thought of myself as somebody who understood what it was like to be marginalized, but there are so many different facets to that and there are so many benefits that I get that other people in the disability community don't get, that I feel like we need to be talking about those things in a more nuanced way. So if there's one thing, how it relates to me is just knowing that, speaking up and knowing that when I get an opportunity, being aware that it's not a one to one of people with disabilities.
I think that was one of the things that if I could go back and address in the book, if I knew it then, there's a lot of blanket statements in that book about what it's like to live with a disability. You, living with a disability as a woman is different than me as a man.

Ardra Shephard:
I acknowledge also that I have a lot of privilege as well within my disability. I think that is one of the challenges for advocacy for the disability community in general is engaging that intersectionality and I think one of the problems is this reluctance to find any pride of identity in disability the way other marginalized communities sometimes can. So I think that the work that you're doing, Zach, also is helpful in that space, because really if we can just, we can't advocate for ourselves or any of the intersections of the disability community if we don't feel like we're worth it and that we deserve accessible spaces and opportunities and income equality and all those kinds of things.

Zach Anner:
Yeah. I think that's really important, and I think also one of the things that blew my mind a little bit is that in my disability space, disability pride is something that is talked about a lot, but for other marginalized groups sometimes it's not safe for them to identify as disabled. So there are a lot of people with invisible disabilities or disabilities that they don't feel comfortable talking about, just because of the way that society treats them due to their other marginalization.
One thing that I have shifted my perspective on is I used to think, "Oh, it's important to have accessible spaces so that I can be a part of things." I've shifted that into, it's important for spaces to be accessible so that those spaces don't miss out on what I'm bringing. It's not just for me, it's for everybody.

Ardra Shephard:
Oh, I love that, Zach. That's my favorite thing you've said. I love that.

Zach Anner:
... Don't miss out on these amazing people who have disabilities and what they're bringing. You're not doing them a favour, it's a community-based thing and you're making your community stronger by making your spaces accessible.

Ardra Shephard:
I love that. I love that. Zach, you have such a way of making it feel like it's not one team against the other, and we are all learning and you seem to have so much patience for that process. You even call yourself out in your book when you talk about challenging a kid with no limbs to prove that he needed the accessible parking. That's an extreme example, but so many people have been on both sides of a social situation where a disability is either being questioned or doubted and having to be defended. What advice do you have for, what would you tell the self-appointed disability police or the people who have been asked to prove themselves?

Zach Anner:
I've definitely come around, because I would say one of the biggest struggles as someone with a disability, honestly, the time when I feel the most disabled is when I'm going through an airport and there's somebody in the accessible stall who just jogs out, jaunts out. It makes me feel frustrated. Then I was doing a panel where I was talking about that and then someone else on the panel called me out and they're like, "There are a lot of invisible disabilities that people still need to use those stalls, and you never know who's dealing with what."
I was like, "Oh, damn. Maybe I'm a little bit ableist." I think that's the thing is just because we are going through these experiences doesn't mean that we don't have our own prejudices to deal with, and we should always keep those in check. There's never a time where there's not more to learn and grow and I think we are so quick to judge people who just don't know better. I think there's an antagonization of people who make mistakes and have a long way to go in their learning about disability culture, and that's just not the way that I choose to deal with it, because I'm still learning.
I know it's complicated, and the thing with disability that you spoke to earlier, there's not necessarily the same cohesion in this community as other communities, because the experiences are so different in terms of the way that the world views us as individuals. Because every disability manifests itself differently with each person, and I can talk to another person who has CP and just because of how CP wears on them, my life has been completely different, because of the way I was raised and my perspective and the things that I value. The CP experience is not universal, so the thing that we need to come together on is just how unique it all is and the change in itself can be how the able-bodied community can interact and just take people as people.

Ardra Shephard:
Just giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Zach Anner:
Just you wouldn't treat, everyone says treat every person the same, but every interaction is different. Just treat a person like a person and engage with a human being and not a condition, and learn as you go. Because you can learn all the right things to say and then you'll say whatever you think is the correct phrase, and people will be like, "Don't call me a person with a disability, I'm a disabled." It's fine to say disabled, and those things shift so quickly that just meet people for who they are and go from there. Don't try and create a handbook on how every engagement should go, because once people are adults, just treat people with humanity and reciprocate.

Alex Hajjar:
Yeah, absolutely. I think maybe the ignorance has come from, I guess maybe a little bit of the fact that a lot of the world has already been built for one type of person or for a very few types of people, rather than taking into consideration everybody who doesn't fit that mould.

Ardra Shephard:
I think it's storytelling, I think it's media and the stories that we tell, and I think it's starting to change. If you don't have experience, if you don't know somebody, multiple people with multiple different disabilities, then your experience of that experience is what you know from TV and movies. I think we've fucked it up for a long time, but things are really changing. Zach, you've worked in television and media for more than a decade, a long time, in 2011 when you were doing your show for Oprah's network, you said that, and you said it in this interview also, "In order to make the more accessible I was going to have to present the most accessible version of myself."
I also host a television show, shameless shout-out, Fashion Dis, I can attest to the fact that the biggest challenge is managing your bathroom routine around shoot days. In 2011, it didn't feel safe for you to ask for accommodations, even with freaking Oprah. I'm very proud to say that Canada is in the process of launching a disability screen office. What changes have you noticed in the industry since you first started out and what advice do you have for someone in any industry that needs accommodations?

Zach Anner:
Okay. Well, I will actually, and maybe it didn't come through in the book, but the Oprah Network actually, before I went on that reality show, they were really very much in terms of making things accessible and accommodating my needs, they were on board. I met with an accommodation specialist beforehand and they asked me everything that I needed, and there were certain things that I needed that I was just too timid to ask for. That was on me.

Ardra Shephard:
But that's what I mean is you didn't feel safe, because you have to work that much harder to make it.

Zach Anner:
Yeah.

Ardra Shephard:
Do you feel safer now because of who you are, or because things are changing more?

Zach Anner:
Oh, absolutely. I think it's really changing now because it's at least part of the conversation to begin with. The show that I wrote for most recently, it's a show called Best Foot Forward on Apple TV, and what was really incredible is it was about a kid with a limb difference. Half the writers' room were people who identify as disabled, which just a few years before when I was writing for Speechless, I was the only writer with a disability in the writers' room.
The changes that I've seen in terms of the way that disability is incorporated, at first it was all about, first it was just getting representation on screen, it doesn't matter if the person is actually representative of the community and has the disability, and just seeing those characters on screen were such a big deal to me growing up. I auditioned for Glee and it was terrible, but the kid that wound up getting the part wasn't disabled, but just that the character existed was cool. Then I remember when I was a teenager, so many people will not agree with me on this, but I saw the Tom Green movie Freddy Got Fingered and his love interest was in a wheelchair, was not a person who was actually a wheelchair user, but I was just so enamoured that could be an option for a romantic lead to be using a wheelchair.
Now, it's more about let's get authentic representation on screen and the TV show that I was talking about, they had disabled directors and disabled crew members and the person who wrote the theme song also had a disability. Using the entire show as like, "Oh, we can employ these badasses with disabilities and have it not just show up on screen, but behind the camera." It wasn't like, "Oh, we'll figure out how to do this when we're shooting." It was built into that show from the ground up because the production company, which is Canadian by the way, it's Muse Entertainment, they are so, they have their finger on the pulse of that. That's really cool to see, because that influences the types of stories that you can tell and it's authenticity from top to bottom. So it's cool.

Ardra Shephard:
It's really exciting to see these changes, absolutely.

Alex Hajjar:
I wanted to ask actually, so my wife Nicole has MS, and so I'm the partner, but vis-a-vis the caregiver as well, so throughout the book and throughout watching That's Awesome and writing Shotgun and Workout Wednesdays is one of my favourite things, it's so great to watch, I love it, you're surrounding yourself with a great team of friends that are also caregivers. Do you have a different dynamic with people that provide care that are your friends, versus friends who don't? How do you protect those relationships and what advice do you have for someone who's a caregiver, but also a partner or a friend or a husband or wife or something?

Zach Anner:
I don't know that I'm a person to speak to this, but my group of friends, I've never hired a caregiver in my life, it's always been friends and family and making this hodgepodge of incredible people who understand what my needs are and that's part of the dynamic is that we're going to be goofing around, but sometimes I'll need help with certain things. I've just been surrounded by great people who I've found because we've had similar senses of humour and we've been making stuff, and luckily they've all been down to be helpful as needed. I think just the level of appreciation that I have has only grown throughout the years, and I'm just understanding that empowerment is a two-way street, so when I have the opportunity to empower them through work or whatever, I will do that.
We understand each other in terms of like, "Oh, it's not exactly even, but we're both, everyone's giving what they can here." In terms of romantic partners, I think my experience was super limited, as you guys probably read from the book, but what I learned is you have to have those boundaries. I was learning in my first relationship at age 29 that a romantic partner doesn't necessarily want to always be a caregiver at the same time, and you need to make space for that separation so that you can have, switch roles, because they're not always entwined in ...
Communication I think is the thing that I was the worst at, because I didn't know what was going on with my own body, so I couldn't communicate it to anyone else. Or what my own needs were, because so much of my life the things that people were taking care of for me, I didn't see them. Because that idea of independence was so ingrained in me, people would try to make the things that they were helping me with invisible so that I could feel all confident and like I was being independent. Then it wasn't until I got into a romantic relationship where the person who I was with was like, "Hey, I'm actually doing a lot here and I'm wanting a partner, and you're not really being a partner. You just seem to want another mom."

Ardra Shephard:
So how much of this is disability and how much of this is just you're being a guy?

Zach Anner:
That's the thing is it's something that a lot of guys, it's not unique to disability.

Ardra Shephard:
It's not just you, Zach.

Zach Anner:
It's not unique, but the bubble that's created when you grow up with a disability is sometimes pretty thick.

Ardra Shephard:
I'm sure.

Zach Anner:
So it's amplified, so I think a lot of that, I heard from so many women after they read the book that Gillian's perspective of like, "Oh, I had to do all this with my husband, because he didn't know how to be an adult man and it's not just you, it's not just disability." But it's important, as somebody who requires a lot of help, to at least, the level of awareness has definitely increased. That's made my life a whole lot better.

Alex Hajjar:
I do have one more question, but I wanted to ask you something. What rates higher, is it a verbal apology or do you just take someone out to the Olive Garden for an apology?

Zach Anner:
Oh, the Olive Garden? Well, the Olive Garden, here's the thing, I think I explained it in the book, the Olive Garden, probably not the best food in the world, but it is I think the greatest restaurant for being a complete clean slate of making it whatever you want it to be. I still hold the record of 17 breadsticks in one sitting, and I feel pretty good about that, still love the OG. My palate has definitely grown since I've written the book, but the Olive Garden will always have a place in my heart.

Ardra Shephard:
Are you working on another book? What's next? You're in LA, what are you up to? Where can people find you?

Zach Anner:
Okay. Well, people can find me around Burbank, California. I'll just be zooming around on the street. Gillian Grassie and I, who was my ex-girlfriend, current writing partner ...

Ardra Shephard:
I'm sure there's lots of material there.

Zach Anner:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So we're pitching the show version of the book, which charts our relationship, and we're also writing a movie that's going to start shooting I guess in the summer sometime. I'm not sure I'm supposed to talk about it.

Ardra Shephard:
Well, you heard it here, folks. That's very exciting.

Zach Anner:
We're excited about it, we're very excited. But yeah, I wish I could give you more details, but I can't, which means I have to come back on the podcast to hawk the movie.

Ardra Shephard:
I would love that. Yes. Zach, thank you so much for being on this show. This was amazing, I could talk to you all day.

Zach Anner:
Oh, thanks for having me. Sorry, I didn't make more jokes. You introduced me as this comedian, and then we get into this deep philosophical conversation. Whatever, man.

Ardra Shephard:
No, I love it. We've got to talk about this stuff, right?

Zach Anner:
Yeah.

Ardra Shephard:
I think, anyway. I thought it was, I loved it.

Zach Anner:
Can you explain to me what Fashion Dis is, because I just, my wardrobe needs ...

Ardra Shephard:
I can, yep. So Fashion Dis is a makeover series created and hosted by me, I'm also a writer, and now this is just me bragging and being embarrassing. Fashion Dis is a makeover show and it features people with disabilities, and it really was created out of this sense that people with disabilities have been erased from the fashion and beauty industry and I really wanted to highlight the style and beauty potential of people with disabilities to also add to the cannon of high fashion images that are out there. I think representation is so important. There are also adaptive clothing brands and beauty brands that are becoming more and more prolific every year, so we highlight those universal design and clothing and fashion. It's not a show that's about fixing people at all, it's really just giving people with disabilities a style, a platform and we're about to start filming season two in January.

Zach Anner:
Oh, that's fantastic. I will definitely check that out. All right, cool. I'll watch it, because honestly, I love wearing some nice suits, but every time, it doesn't matter, whenever the pictures come out, everything's all scrunched up because sitting in the wheelchair, just so much scrunch.

Ardra Shephard:
This is, we address this, we have Izzy Camilleri, who understands that seated body types, clothing fits differently. So there are brands now that do cater to wheelchair users, where the cut is different and the waistline is higher. So we get into all that stuff.

Alex Hajjar:
It's thorough.

Zach Anner:
Maybe I've just got to move to Toronto or something.

Alex Hajjar:
Hollywood North, yeah.

Ardra Shephard:
Hollywood North, right? Hollywood north.

Zach Anner:
All right.

Ardra Shephard:
Zach Anner's book is called If at Birth You Don't Succeed. Happy new year, trippers, I hope you spend a little time today thinking about one thing at least that you already love about yourself. Happy new year.

Zach Anner:
Happy new year.

Ardra Shephard:
Thanks for listening to Tripping On Air, don't forget to visit us at TrippingOnAir.com.